Talbot
Active member
I intend to have both a large solar panel and a duogen in order to meet my power needs, but can only afford one this year, What do you all recommend as the first?
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Solar Panel or wind generator
- Thread starter Talbot
- Start date
ccscott49
Active member
depends where you are, meddy solar, caribean, wind, NW Europe wind. Not sue about those duogen thingys.
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boatmike
Well-known member
I have no experience of wind generators apart from being anoyed by them on other peoples boats while at anchor. I have however been very pleasantly surprised at the performance of solar panels. With 2 panels about 2ft square linked directly to a dedicated service battery bank I have been able to run a fridge pretty continuously while not aboard and keep my general battery state topped up to 14 volts. AND THIS IS IN THE UK!
Admittedly they are expensive (cost me about £800 to install including regulator etc.) but I get about 3 amps pretty continuously on an average summer day and when the sun comes out in earnest 5 to 6....
I would guess that in the Med the fridge will consume more power than in the UK but the sun comes out more too so I would personally go the solar route.
I am not yet a livaboard expert and would of course listen to the experiences of those who are. There are two things that put me off windy gennies though. 1. Noise (I like my peace and quiet) and danger (dont want a big rotating food blender on my boat). Also there are no moving parts to maintain on a solar panel!
I also reflect, what is the most reliable in the med? Wind or light levels? Not much difficulty answering that one! While I have not yet lived on a boat (but will start this year) I have sailed in the Med and Caribbean and I have always had either too much or not enough wind, while the days of bright light (contrary to popular belief solar panels don't run on heat from the sun they run on light) has remained constant.
No contest in my book. Install the solar panels. Get them as big and as many as you can afford. Try it out for a season and my guess is you will not want the windie at all......
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Admittedly they are expensive (cost me about £800 to install including regulator etc.) but I get about 3 amps pretty continuously on an average summer day and when the sun comes out in earnest 5 to 6....
I would guess that in the Med the fridge will consume more power than in the UK but the sun comes out more too so I would personally go the solar route.
I am not yet a livaboard expert and would of course listen to the experiences of those who are. There are two things that put me off windy gennies though. 1. Noise (I like my peace and quiet) and danger (dont want a big rotating food blender on my boat). Also there are no moving parts to maintain on a solar panel!
I also reflect, what is the most reliable in the med? Wind or light levels? Not much difficulty answering that one! While I have not yet lived on a boat (but will start this year) I have sailed in the Med and Caribbean and I have always had either too much or not enough wind, while the days of bright light (contrary to popular belief solar panels don't run on heat from the sun they run on light) has remained constant.
No contest in my book. Install the solar panels. Get them as big and as many as you can afford. Try it out for a season and my guess is you will not want the windie at all......
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boatmike
Well-known member
By the way. I have just seen you sail a cat. I sail a Prout Snowgoose. Another good reason for solar panels. You are not sailing with any appreciable lean (I hope!) and they are always pointed vaguely upwards. Monohulls going to windward lean over (poor misguided lot) which causes them to have to keep moving their SPs around. You won't but DEFINITELY buy 2 and mount them on the coachroof Port and Starboard to optimise performance when motoring or sailing.
My boat is ashore in Northney Marina currently. If you want to come take a look send me a PM!
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My boat is ashore in Northney Marina currently. If you want to come take a look send me a PM!
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ccscott49
Active member
What you need solar panels for when motoring?
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Talbot
Active member
Cause my engine is a diesel outboard and only has a 10 amp charger. But iyt is 27 hp, light weight and I can hydraulically lift it out of the water for sailing. I can alsio reach the propellor from the stern without getting into the water (when it is lifted)
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Talbot
Active member
I plan to have a single 170w panel mounted on lugs above the dinghy davits. This minimises the distance to the batteries. The Catalac shape is not quite so appropriate for a coachroof mount. I was in Northney year before last and was appalled by their bills - I vowed never to go there again. Need for all the power is that I have eberspacher, and will be fitting bow thruster and 1000w windlass as soon as I can get out of the water (dont ask - a long saga of broken promises)
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ccscott49
Active member
10 amp charger is pretty good! From an outboard. I didn`t ask about the hydraulics or the other reasons for having an outboard, but good idea anyway!
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ccscott49
Active member
170 watt panel, that would do nicely, but I bet it isn`t cheap, I`ll wait until I go to the states before I buy a solar panel.
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charles_reed
Active member
I've got both.
Choosing between one or the other I'd go for Solar panels first as they're rather more consistent.
You do need both in the long run.
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Choosing between one or the other I'd go for Solar panels first as they're rather more consistent.
You do need both in the long run.
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boatmike
Well-known member
Quite right I don't.
I should have perhaps said when either under sail or not. i.e. at anchor perhaps.
However even under engine I let the third battery stay under solar charge to allow my other main (second) service battery and the first traction battery used solely for engine starting to take all the available charge from the engines alternator. With a "smart" regulator on the engine this allows the battery that is sensed to be the battery that is being charged. If I am getting 6 amps free from my SPs I don't want to waste it. Running a fridge from the engines alternator unnecessarily when it could be giving a full charge to the other batteries is wasting power during the relatively short periods it is running.
Depends of course on the boat. How often and for how long you motor and your own philosophy on battery management.
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I should have perhaps said when either under sail or not. i.e. at anchor perhaps.
However even under engine I let the third battery stay under solar charge to allow my other main (second) service battery and the first traction battery used solely for engine starting to take all the available charge from the engines alternator. With a "smart" regulator on the engine this allows the battery that is sensed to be the battery that is being charged. If I am getting 6 amps free from my SPs I don't want to waste it. Running a fridge from the engines alternator unnecessarily when it could be giving a full charge to the other batteries is wasting power during the relatively short periods it is running.
Depends of course on the boat. How often and for how long you motor and your own philosophy on battery management.
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ccscott49
Active member
When at anchor, I run the genny for three hours every two days, also make water at the same time.
When at sea I have a motor sailer, so I have at least one engine on, and alternate them every six hours. So have plenty of energy available to charge batteries.
I have a smart reg, on my stb engine which charges the domestics, 550 ah at 24v. Then the port engine charges the engine start, without a smart charger as it`s not required.
I use a sterling battery management panel to check the health of all batteries, I also have 2 x 12v batteries for genny start, which are charged through a charger. I have considered solar and will fit two 85-100 watt panels, when I get to the states, to assist my energy requirements, finding somewher to put said panels might be a small problem and at 7 mps, i could do with at least twice that panel size. but 4 @ 5-600 pounds each, that buys 1800 gals of diesel about 10 years of diesel for my genny. A wind genny same thing and unreliable constant source, although again I intend to fit one..
My boat is very power hungry and I find this works for me, I dont go into marinas, except in the (cheap) winter, I liveaboard all the time. 2 fridges, freezer, watermaker etc. I see no reason to rough it and find the cost of the diesel to generate my own leecy and water works not an excessive outlay. Different strokes for different folks.
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When at sea I have a motor sailer, so I have at least one engine on, and alternate them every six hours. So have plenty of energy available to charge batteries.
I have a smart reg, on my stb engine which charges the domestics, 550 ah at 24v. Then the port engine charges the engine start, without a smart charger as it`s not required.
I use a sterling battery management panel to check the health of all batteries, I also have 2 x 12v batteries for genny start, which are charged through a charger. I have considered solar and will fit two 85-100 watt panels, when I get to the states, to assist my energy requirements, finding somewher to put said panels might be a small problem and at 7 mps, i could do with at least twice that panel size. but 4 @ 5-600 pounds each, that buys 1800 gals of diesel about 10 years of diesel for my genny. A wind genny same thing and unreliable constant source, although again I intend to fit one..
My boat is very power hungry and I find this works for me, I dont go into marinas, except in the (cheap) winter, I liveaboard all the time. 2 fridges, freezer, watermaker etc. I see no reason to rough it and find the cost of the diesel to generate my own leecy and water works not an excessive outlay. Different strokes for different folks.
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boatmike
Well-known member
Agree all MDL Marinas are expensive. Less so ashore than afloat though and their travel lift is wide enough to take the cat so for 3 months ashore not too bad. Agree that Eberspacher needs a lot of power to run the fan etc. Also when you need it you will be in the cold dark winter maybe when the solar panel won't keep up too well. This might be a logical argument for wind power unless you are tucked up in a marina with shore connection which makes solar and wind power redundant anyway......
I personally feel that the bow thruster and anchor windlass are not a consideration as you would have your engine running before using either of them surely?
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I personally feel that the bow thruster and anchor windlass are not a consideration as you would have your engine running before using either of them surely?
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boatmike
Well-known member
Totally agree, different strokes for different folks. I like to sail and only run engines when absolutely necessary. Nasty noisy smelly things! Just goes to show we are all different. Would be a boring old world if we were not!
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boatmike
Well-known member
p.s. also agree as far aft as possible if you have a single panel is good to avoid sail shadow when under way.
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ccscott49
Active member
There talks somebdoy that knows little about engines, they do not have to be smelly or noisy. with the right instalation, but I too like to get them shut down, but in the meddy you had beter realise you are not going everywhere by sail alone.
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Talbot
Active member
yes engine will be running, and power output for the max 3-4 mins of use is not a big consideration, but a windlass can use a lot of power if you have a lot of cable out, or want to re-anchor. In anycase I have done a thorough power budget and believe that the mix that I have will be correct for the boating I will be doing, and as a back-up I have a small generator.
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boatmike
Well-known member
And there speaks someone purely looking for an argument it seems.
I will make 4 points only and then shut up.
1. You are talking to a Marine Engineer with 40 years experience of designing, installing, and maintaining marine diesel engines. I am not prejudiced against them I just prefer to sail
2. I try to inject some humour in to the proceedings. Obviously not in your case appreciated.
3. Although I have no actual livaboard experience on a small craft in the Med as you do I have sailed extensively in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans over a period of some 40 years both professionally as crew and as a sailing enthusiast. I know the Med very well. I also know I will need an engine and will have to use it extensively if I go there.
4. If you go back to the beginning of this thread the original question was NOT confined to that shallow pond it was general. There is a bigger world out there than the Med you know!
There is no need to be so ***** aggressive !!!!!
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I will make 4 points only and then shut up.
1. You are talking to a Marine Engineer with 40 years experience of designing, installing, and maintaining marine diesel engines. I am not prejudiced against them I just prefer to sail
2. I try to inject some humour in to the proceedings. Obviously not in your case appreciated.
3. Although I have no actual livaboard experience on a small craft in the Med as you do I have sailed extensively in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans over a period of some 40 years both professionally as crew and as a sailing enthusiast. I know the Med very well. I also know I will need an engine and will have to use it extensively if I go there.
4. If you go back to the beginning of this thread the original question was NOT confined to that shallow pond it was general. There is a bigger world out there than the Med you know!
There is no need to be so ***** aggressive !!!!!
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ccscott49
Active member
Anything but aggressive, it seems I am misunderstood, I apologise if I have offended and no need to swear, even if it is ######. I too am an engineer, not a marine engineer, but certainly know quite a bit about small marine diesels, and have sailed and motored for more years than I care to remember, also all over the world, so...... Anyway, the meddy is where I am now, could be in the caribbean or west coast of the states this year or next, who knows. I have lived aboard on and off for 25 years. Also my original answer was also not confined to that not very shallow pond. I too will now shut up, here anyway.
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boatmike
Well-known member
Yes that's the important thing of course. Everyone's boat, philosophy of use, and sailing area will be different. If you have already done a power balance budget you know best what your requirements are. One can only generalise. You are also correct to be more concerned about secondary charging methods if you only have a limited charge rate from your outboard.
The bow thruster and windlass are indeed some way from your battery and even assuming you will indeed be running them with the outboard charging, the power loss in the cable is a factor. One solution to this is to fit a dedicated battery in the bow. This way the charging cable does not need to be as massive as the power cable would be to reduce the voltage drop to acceptable limits. The disadvantage is that it makes the charging circuit more complicated. If you don't want to fit a second battery have the biggest cable you can and don't forget to fit a marine quality circuit breaker to protect it in the chance of short circuit. Some of the dinky ones sold in chandlers are a menace. I have seen more electrical fires caused by overloaded windlass wiring than I would like to recall...
Best of luck either way. Remembering your original question and recognising I am possibly giving you other advice you did not ask for now (and probably don't need anyway), I still think you should try the solar panel first before you buy a wind charger. You may be pleasantly surprised by the result. Don't forget it will be charging ALL the time there is light. During the summer months I get an average of 84 amp/hours per week from mine which is more than I expected in the UK......
Enjoy your sailing and best of luck whatever choice you make. Too much charging capacity never caused anyone a problem!
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The bow thruster and windlass are indeed some way from your battery and even assuming you will indeed be running them with the outboard charging, the power loss in the cable is a factor. One solution to this is to fit a dedicated battery in the bow. This way the charging cable does not need to be as massive as the power cable would be to reduce the voltage drop to acceptable limits. The disadvantage is that it makes the charging circuit more complicated. If you don't want to fit a second battery have the biggest cable you can and don't forget to fit a marine quality circuit breaker to protect it in the chance of short circuit. Some of the dinky ones sold in chandlers are a menace. I have seen more electrical fires caused by overloaded windlass wiring than I would like to recall...
Best of luck either way. Remembering your original question and recognising I am possibly giving you other advice you did not ask for now (and probably don't need anyway), I still think you should try the solar panel first before you buy a wind charger. You may be pleasantly surprised by the result. Don't forget it will be charging ALL the time there is light. During the summer months I get an average of 84 amp/hours per week from mine which is more than I expected in the UK......
Enjoy your sailing and best of luck whatever choice you make. Too much charging capacity never caused anyone a problem!
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