thinwater
Well-Known Member
Were they Gibb-style (Spinlock) hooks? They are known to jam.
Soft shackles, who uses them, what for?
- Thread starter Neeves
- Start date
Were they Gibb-style (Spinlock) hooks? They are known to jam.
alahol2
Well-Known Member
Two more uses...
Our (hard) dinghy has a double painter, one end is hard shackled to the stem the other is soft shackled to the stem head. A double length painter is then easily available by releasing the soft shackle. eg Towing in following sea or crowded pontoon landing.
I use a midships line for coming alongside. The cleat is single leg so there is no way to guarantee the warp will not slip from under the cleat when manoeuvring. A soft shackle round the cleat gives a safe lead to the warp from cockpit to pontoon while getting sorted.
Our (hard) dinghy has a double painter, one end is hard shackled to the stem the other is soft shackled to the stem head. A double length painter is then easily available by releasing the soft shackle. eg Towing in following sea or crowded pontoon landing.
I use a midships line for coming alongside. The cleat is single leg so there is no way to guarantee the warp will not slip from under the cleat when manoeuvring. A soft shackle round the cleat gives a safe lead to the warp from cockpit to pontoon while getting sorted.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Was it this type of hook? These are known to snag on webbing. Combined with other known weaknesses and failure to meet ISO standards, I don't understand why they have not been recalled.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/Tether-Clip-Update-12345-1.html
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Probably something like the Kong "Tango", IIRC something very similar has been added to the latest Spinlock tethers just after the Clipper accident and following Maib report.
One (further) nice feature they have is the curved end hasn't got the small cut most other hooks have (to take the pin of the opening small bar), so when taking/releasing the webbing it does not risk to hook it.
Oh just found a picturethe end of the body, to the right, has no cut.
http://theopsdeck.com/img.prod.CTC/PROD - Kong Tango Safety Snap.open.jpg
They can be opened with one hand, however it's maybe the shape of my hand but I'd say slightly less friendly than say the wichards.
I'm not a huge fan of snap shackles. I've had this happen too many times.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3DB8KQTsG8I/V94JxUgu5XI/AAAAAAAAMxE/Ou0OJoEu4SY9qe7PsCVa1EcJGx8V0bUKQCLcB/s400/14.%2Bfailed%2Bsnap%2Bshackle.jpg
I am quite happy with the Kong Tangos, which are used on the Volvo boats, and also the Whichard Proline (webbing with green stripe). Very strong, snag-free, and clip railings. These are built to via ferrata standards rather than the inadequate traditional but inadequate marine standard.https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-P3da0eJwP1Y/WnP_R4FFoMI/AAAAAAAAOeM/4Tvkl-UOc24fbLyJnlIRDDmKsZOzkHu9ACLcBGAs/s1600/tether%2Btesting.jpg
thinwater
Well-Known Member
You misunderstand. I am not arguing. I was simply providing updated regulatory information. Whether it is "right," describes the best methods, or the best equipment is a separate question. I think it is the product of a committee and should be taken as such. I believe their intention is to lean on ISO standards more and more, in the future, and thus the World Sail description of clips should logically very limited. I believe that is the logic.
Put another way, to understand the World Sailing standard, it is now necessary to get a copy of ISO 12401 and the referenced connector standard. That is where the critical information will be. On one hand, I understand the logic in building one standard upon another. It keeps them synchronized and up to date. This lack of synchronization contributed to the Clipper accident. But given that many of these standards are copyright protected and thus limited in availability, it makes standards such as World Sailing harder to understand.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Yes they were the common type that seem to be used by 90% of boats in the U.K. but if they jamb a bit with 25mm tape, they are hopeless with 40mm tape. It was suggested to take round the tape and clip back onto itself - but that seemed very likely to provide a side load on the clips, which has been shown post Clipper to be a dangerous weakness.
Adding the soft shackles to the jackstays solved the jamming issue and kept the strain on the clips in the correct direction.
Easier to add soft shackles than change 6 harness tether and clips mid Atlantic
Sailingsaves
Well-Known Member
Yes I use them.
Have not read all posts, so sorry if I tread on toes or repeat something already stated.
I love them. No mousing required etc.
I have just ordered 2 lengths of different grade dyneema to play around with (making an eye splice is SO easy and satisfying (to me at least))
I used a soft shackle instead of a metal shackle when I secured my boat to its swinging mooring in January. (It was on the 'back-up' mooring line, but the lines twisted and so forth).
The diameter of dyneema was only 4mm. I made the soft shackle myself. I don't know what dyneema it was (sk75 or sk78 etc).
After a few months I went to finally install a proper metal shackle and found the soft shackle had taken some load (because lines had twisted) and it had rubbed against other rusty shackle, but the soft shackle was in remarkably good condition (even if very dirty and salt encrusted).
Have not read all posts, so sorry if I tread on toes or repeat something already stated.
I love them. No mousing required etc.
I have just ordered 2 lengths of different grade dyneema to play around with (making an eye splice is SO easy and satisfying (to me at least))
I used a soft shackle instead of a metal shackle when I secured my boat to its swinging mooring in January. (It was on the 'back-up' mooring line, but the lines twisted and so forth).
The diameter of dyneema was only 4mm. I made the soft shackle myself. I don't know what dyneema it was (sk75 or sk78 etc).
After a few months I went to finally install a proper metal shackle and found the soft shackle had taken some load (because lines had twisted) and it had rubbed against other rusty shackle, but the soft shackle was in remarkably good condition (even if very dirty and salt encrusted).
LoneHort
Well-Known Member
Interesting Jonathan, is there a ‘how to’ anywhere with pictures on how to do that? How long was your hollow strip and how did you mouse both lines up ?
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Sorry Lone Heart,
To what do you refer?
I think you refer to using hollow dyneema tape?
Its not difficult. I fed dyneema fishing line from each end, through the tape, which I sewed into each sheet end, then you can pull one sheet in from one end and the other from the other end. You leave the centre 'empty' as it will be the cow hitch and you want it to be low bulk. I sewed right through the cover, the hollow tape, and the sheet inside using dyneema fishing line. I whipped where the tape 'finishes' to stop it fraying. The fishing line is normal dyneema leisure line - nothing special.
If you source tape of the same diameter as the sheet you can 'compress' the tape (push it from end to end) and 'make it' a larger diameter, (so make it slack) you can then easily milk the sheet into the tape.
Dimensions, I'll check and edit later today. You can make the centre, for the cow hitch, as long as you want - it just needs to be long enough for the hitch - but longer does not matter - hollow dyneema tape will be stronger than the sheet. You will not want it to be excessive - as you need to buy it!
Most rope makers make hollow dyneema tape, or many do. I bought ours from Nautilus Braids in NZ - not much use to anyone in the UK. I also used it as anti chafe on a snubber. Exactly the same process, except no empty section - just milked the braid to the correct location, sewed and whipped.
I think I mentioned this - its not an original idea. We used it on our X-99, back end of the 80's, but this was the days before dyneema, or just as it was introduced. We used hollow nylon tape (which could be bought then from decent climbing shops like, the late, Graham Tiso and Joe Brown. The stitching then (I don't recall the thread) was not really man enough and we did have unexpected failures. The nylon also stretches too much and the cow hitch can be impossible to undo (dyneema is better). But if you cannot find dyneema hollow tape - try nylon but still use dyneema thread and be prepared to cut the hitch if you need to take the sheets off.
Jonathan
I'll try to encourage someone who has done some testing of sewing ropes and tapes etc, to post and feed in more detail.
To what do you refer?
I think you refer to using hollow dyneema tape?
Its not difficult. I fed dyneema fishing line from each end, through the tape, which I sewed into each sheet end, then you can pull one sheet in from one end and the other from the other end. You leave the centre 'empty' as it will be the cow hitch and you want it to be low bulk. I sewed right through the cover, the hollow tape, and the sheet inside using dyneema fishing line. I whipped where the tape 'finishes' to stop it fraying. The fishing line is normal dyneema leisure line - nothing special.
If you source tape of the same diameter as the sheet you can 'compress' the tape (push it from end to end) and 'make it' a larger diameter, (so make it slack) you can then easily milk the sheet into the tape.
Dimensions, I'll check and edit later today. You can make the centre, for the cow hitch, as long as you want - it just needs to be long enough for the hitch - but longer does not matter - hollow dyneema tape will be stronger than the sheet. You will not want it to be excessive - as you need to buy it!
Most rope makers make hollow dyneema tape, or many do. I bought ours from Nautilus Braids in NZ - not much use to anyone in the UK. I also used it as anti chafe on a snubber. Exactly the same process, except no empty section - just milked the braid to the correct location, sewed and whipped.
I think I mentioned this - its not an original idea. We used it on our X-99, back end of the 80's, but this was the days before dyneema, or just as it was introduced. We used hollow nylon tape (which could be bought then from decent climbing shops like, the late, Graham Tiso and Joe Brown. The stitching then (I don't recall the thread) was not really man enough and we did have unexpected failures. The nylon also stretches too much and the cow hitch can be impossible to undo (dyneema is better). But if you cannot find dyneema hollow tape - try nylon but still use dyneema thread and be prepared to cut the hitch if you need to take the sheets off.
Jonathan
I'll try to encourage someone who has done some testing of sewing ropes and tapes etc, to post and feed in more detail.
Last edited:
thinwater
Well-Known Member
I've done a lot with sewn eyes and splices, some because I'm cheap, some for research, and some to manufacture equipment that does not otherwise exist. In a former life I was also involved in climbing gear manufacture.
For hand stitching, this sort of covers it. In a nutshell, there are all sort of friction effects and compression effects, but if you just multiply the strength of the thread by the number of passes, that's about right (for an eye splice--end-to-end would require twice this count and is impossible to make full strength unless reinforced). Then add the all-important safety factor for wear and UV. Because much of the holding strength is actually internal, wear and UV are not as bad as you would fear, but I always cover the stitching anyway.
https://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2016/11/rev.html
[lots of break testing]
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YoDIIar_lO4/WBpJMG91rqI/AAAAAAAAM-E/GWx79kxMSxY3jGNdXlrJRC-VmdGEb2SwgCEw/s640/test%2Bpile.jpg
For hand stitching, this sort of covers it. In a nutshell, there are all sort of friction effects and compression effects, but if you just multiply the strength of the thread by the number of passes, that's about right (for an eye splice--end-to-end would require twice this count and is impossible to make full strength unless reinforced). Then add the all-important safety factor for wear and UV. Because much of the holding strength is actually internal, wear and UV are not as bad as you would fear, but I always cover the stitching anyway.
https://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2016/11/rev.html
[lots of break testing]
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YoDIIar_lO4/WBpJMG91rqI/AAAAAAAAM-E/GWx79kxMSxY3jGNdXlrJRC-VmdGEb2SwgCEw/s640/test%2Bpile.jpg
Last edited:
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Our sleeved sheets have a 600mm dyneema sleeve, 200mm on each sheet and 200mm for the cow hitch. I suspect this is over engineered. The 200mm is certainly big enough for the cow hitch. My sewing follows the recommendation of Thinwater, as I had seen it when it was published. The 'splice' has lasted for years. You do need to be good at whipping (pretty simple) to seal the ends of the dyneema tape onto the sheets themselves. We have 3 headsails, a screecher 45m^2 (Code Zero), genoa and No 4 jib and each has its own set of sheets, permanently attached. It is possible to release the cow hitched dyneema tape after heavy use - but you do need needle nose pliers. Just take care and be patient - the dyneema is pretty tough. We had had no problem, at all, with UV - in the Australian sun (and the genoa and screecher are on furlers and effectively exposed to the elements 365.
Jonathan
Jonathan
TOKOLOSHI
Well-Known Member
Heres a "How to" video, apologies if seen before!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0eZz36PRYI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0eZz36PRYI
