PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
In my opinion I would put them on the same level as the invention of the Constrictor Knot and the Alpine Butterfly.
Soft shackles, who uses them, what for?
- Thread starter Neeves
- Start date
In my opinion I would put them on the same level as the invention of the Constrictor Knot and the Alpine Butterfly.
PetiteFleur
Well-Known Member
I've only used one - on the mainsheet traveller to connect the snap shackle on the block to the eye on the traveller. The eye on the traveller is snug so if a shackle is used the force of the mainsheet when gybing distorts the shackle - the soft shackle avoids this, and is quieter. And the block can be easily removed via it's snap shackle when we have the cockpit tent erected. I have whipped the centre together so there is no chance of losing it.
noelex
Well-Known Member
If you are interested in tying your own, my wife has written instructions and posted photos in this link for tying the high strength soft shackle using Brion Toss’s button knot stopper:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ngth-soft-shackle-and-button-knot-155591.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ngth-soft-shackle-and-button-knot-155591.html
laika
Well-Known Member
I find the 3 main attributes are:
* Throat size (already mentioned). If I want to attach a block to my centre cleat, a metal shackle would need to be pretty big
* kindness to things around it
* Ease of doing up without losing a shackle pin.
On the last point, I lost a part of a block overboard last week because I was being too careful about not losing the shackle pin when undoing it. Soft shackles have no pin to lose.
I use my soft shackles for:
* connecting sheets to the #3 jib to the inner forestay
* connecting a (dyneema) strop between the deck and my #3 jib or storm jib
* attaching blocks to anything (e.g. barber haulers)
* rigging my hammock (metal shackles would damage the woven cotton eyes in its ends)
* connecting Thing A to Thing B for a variety of Things: I carry a soft shackle in my pocket.
* Throat size (already mentioned). If I want to attach a block to my centre cleat, a metal shackle would need to be pretty big
* kindness to things around it
* Ease of doing up without losing a shackle pin.
On the last point, I lost a part of a block overboard last week because I was being too careful about not losing the shackle pin when undoing it. Soft shackles have no pin to lose.
I use my soft shackles for:
* connecting sheets to the #3 jib to the inner forestay
* connecting a (dyneema) strop between the deck and my #3 jib or storm jib
* attaching blocks to anything (e.g. barber haulers)
* rigging my hammock (metal shackles would damage the woven cotton eyes in its ends)
* connecting Thing A to Thing B for a variety of Things: I carry a soft shackle in my pocket.
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thinwater
Well-Known Member
Like Nolex, I don't see them as shackle replacements. I see them as a tool. Some times they replace a shackle, sometimes a knot, sometimes some other metal bit. Not all of these are on the same boat. It's far more about reducing banging and scraping than saving weight. Heck, I doubt anyone has saved a whole pound, unless you count the LFRs and Dyneema lines that are part of the philosophy. Heck, even when I change to Dyneema, it is for low stretch, low friction, high strength and other attributes, not weight.
* Genoa clew
* Mainsail tack
* Mooring lines (makes it possible to place more large lines on an undersized cleat)
* Tool box for work-arounds. A range of sizes. Not requiring tools is often helpful. I also carry a few wire gate climbing carabiners for quick things.
* Attaching snubber to chain
* Certain fenders
* Mainsail clew strap (or webbing)
* Leg loops on sailing harness (the existing plastic bits are NOT load rated and metal would scratch)
* Certain dinghy securing points (non-scratching)
I have not used them to secure blocks or tackles, or anywhere there are sharp edges.
* Genoa clew
* Mainsail tack
* Mooring lines (makes it possible to place more large lines on an undersized cleat)
* Tool box for work-arounds. A range of sizes. Not requiring tools is often helpful. I also carry a few wire gate climbing carabiners for quick things.
* Attaching snubber to chain
* Certain fenders
* Mainsail clew strap (or webbing)
* Leg loops on sailing harness (the existing plastic bits are NOT load rated and metal would scratch)
* Certain dinghy securing points (non-scratching)
I have not used them to secure blocks or tackles, or anywhere there are sharp edges.
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Roberto
Well-Known Member
Among other uses, one is to close the front side of my home made harness: I make one turn with one winter clothes, two turns with summer clothes; the whole harness weighs just a few grams, no metal at all.
PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I can understand how that works. It is essential to be able to release a harness instantly in an emergency, at least that is what I believe.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
a. He didn't say attach the tether. He said close the harness. Some harnesses use plastic buckles. They arn't always load bearing.
b. World Sailing does NOT require quick release tethers, because some people disagree (if you are single-handing mid-ocean, is QR better?). In fact, Whichard only makes the QR tethers for the US market. I've been testing a prototype Proline for the past year; very nice.
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PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
According to the ISAF Special Offshore Regulations:
"5.02.5 It is strongly recommended that:-
...
d) snaphooks should be of a type which will not self-release from a U-bolt (see OSR 5.02.1(a)) and which can be easily released under load (crew members are reminded that a personal knife may free them from a safety line in emergency);
... "
ALL of the boats that I have inspected in over fifteen years involvement with the RolexMiddleSeaRace had quick-release snap-hooks ever since the double-lock type came on the market. A large percentage of the boats are household names on the international racing circuit, having professional skippers and crews. Perhaps they only have a vague idea about safety.
As regards sailing solo - which is what I usually do - would I enjoy following a boat that is rapidly disappearing beneath the waves?
Roberto
Well-Known Member
Hello PMD,
the tether has a snapshackle indeed, at its body end; the harness itself is similar to normal ones with metal buckles, except I made it to my measures (so no need to have metal parts to adjust the shoulder straps), and instead of the usual front metal buckle with the D-ring I use the soft shackle, where the body end of the tether is attached.
rgds
PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
Now I understand. Thank you for explaining.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
No need for sarcasm.
a. ISAF is now World Sailing. It has been for over 2 years.
b. Your text is thus out of date:
5.02...
5.02.2 b) not exceed 2 m (6’-6”) including the length of the hooks
5.02.2 c) have self-closing hooks.
Hooks are defined in ISO 12401 as...
4.3.5 Hooks
All hooks provided shall be of a self-closing type, with an opening large enough to accept, and fully close on, a
cylinder of diameter ( 0,1)12,5 0 + mm. There shall be no tendency for the hooks to open by any action, as
tested in 5.4, other than deliberate release, except when a clear and permanent warning label as specified in
5.4 and 6 g) indicates that an attachment bracket is fitted to the craft.
If intermediate hooks are fitted in a safety line, the test specified in 5.4 shall be repeated using each possible
combination of points of attachment. Each repetition shall meet the requirements of this International Standard.
The hooks shall be tested in accordance with ISO 9227. When tested for a period of 160 h, the hooks shall not
be significantly affected by corrosion.
[the test in 5.4 is for unclipping from a U-bolt]
---
I understand the reason for QR clips. I use them. If you find a current requirement, however, please share it.
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Roberto
Well-Known Member
Apart from being light, the main difference is the location of the tether attachment on the harness: while wearing a lifejacket with harness, I was tossed a few feet away and retained by the tether. The attachment point was so low, almost at nostril level, that I feared having broken my back in two. On mine I raised the attachment point locating it above the sternum, IIRC there is some rule suggesting so (possibly OSR?), but above all it seems very sensible.
rgds r
**edit following correction, navel level, not nostril**
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thinwater
Well-Known Member
I'm assuming you meant "navel level."
The ISO 12401 specifies the height of the attachment:
4.3.2 Attachment point
The point of attachment of a safety line to a deck safety harness shall be positioned within 50 mm of the
central axis of the body, front or back, above the lowest point of the ribcage.
If a deck safety harness incorporates more than one point to which the safety line can be attached, it shall
either be demonstrated, using the test in 5.2, that attachment to each single point of attachment in turn meets
the requirements of this International Standard, or the harness shall be marked as specified in 6 f).
Some do not meet the requirement. Heck, some clips don't meet the standard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbyhyC7ua8g
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Roberto
Well-Known Member
dunedin
Well-Known Member
We were on a boat where the jackstay tapes were very wide, causing the safety harness tethers to jamb going forward and back. Meant using two hands to move tether, not holding on, which kind of defeated the purpose.
Used dyneema shackles to make small strong loops to hook onto, solving the issue, without weakening the tether or damaging the teak decks. NB. As not under constant load added sewing/whipping to ensure didn’t come loose when not under load.
Used dyneema shackles to make small strong loops to hook onto, solving the issue, without weakening the tether or damaging the teak decks. NB. As not under constant load added sewing/whipping to ensure didn’t come loose when not under load.
PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
So what has been effectively changed?
"All hooks provided shall be of a self-closing type"
By definition a 'snaphook' - the term that I used in my original post - is "Self-closing"
"There shall be no tendency for the hooks to open by any action, as tested in 5.4, other than deliberate release..."
A "deliberate release" can only mean being able to reverse the 'self-closing' feature quickly and using only one hand. That rules out unscrewing a long nut - which is ruled out because it would not be a 'snaphook' - and rules out the type where a sprung 'barrel' needs to be slid down to release the tongue - because it would not be 'self-closing'.
I have no wish to argue with you but I do look forward to seeing what type of hooks the crews will have at the end of their tethers next 15-19 October (during scrutineering). The start is on the 20th.
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Roberto
Well-Known Member
Probably something like the Kong "Tango", IIRC something very similar has been added to the latest Spinlock tethers just after the Clipper accident and following Maib report.
One (further) nice feature they have is the curved end hasn't got the small cut most other hooks have (to take the pin of the opening small bar), so when taking/releasing the webbing it does not risk to hook it.
Oh just found a picture
the end of the body, to the right, has no cut.http://theopsdeck.com/img.prod.CTC/PROD - Kong Tango Safety Snap.open.jpg
They can be opened with one hand, however it's maybe the shape of my hand but I'd say slightly less friendly than say the wichards.
PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
Probably something like the Kong "Tango", IIRC something very similar has been added to the latest Spinlock tethers just after the Clipper accident and following Maib report.
One (further) nice feature they have is the curved end hasn't got the small cut most other hooks have (to take the pin of the opening small bar), so when taking/releasing the webbing it does not risk to hook it.
Oh just found a picture
http://theopsdeck.com/img.prod.CTC/PROD - Kong Tango Safety Snap.open.jpg
They can be opened with one hand, however it's maybe the shape of my hand but I'd say slightly less friendly than say the wichards.
I agree 100% about the Tango but I don't think that they are "slightly less friendly than say the wichards". I prefer a simple solid 'squeeze' in my hand; maybe because of my thumb!
Elemental
Well-Known Member
I like this idea. More than once I've experienced the same issue. Just pop them onto the jackstay tapes when the tethers come out.... I use soft shackles anywhere I think I might need to release the shackle whilst under way - there being no pin to lose nor possibility of the pin jamming. Plus a million and one non-shackle uses as suggested previously.
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