Soft shackles in place of piston hanks on headsail?

[Kukri]

A friend did this as an interim measure before fitting a furler on his jib.

I am thinking about the rising cost of piston hanks for the staysail and storm jib, and about an interesting episode in which the boat managed to bust half a dozen old piston hanks in a few hours when running fast under headsail - I think the springs had perhaps weakened over time, because “by the dawn’s early light”, as the Americans put it, the pistons were missing!

Anyone else done this?

 

[Neeves]

Answering the question - no I've not tried it

Can you actually make soft shackles of the cordage diameter needed that small and of a consistent size/length.

Piston hanks are 'relatively' easy to use: pull, clip; pill, clip etc you can use them 'almost' or 'sort of' one handed - soft shackles are bit more fiddly (at night, in the rain, on a heaving foredeck etc)

Jonathan

Piston hanks also have a secured method of attachment to the sail. I'm sure you could secure a soft shackle but it has to be completed so that the 2 ends of the soft shackle are exactly right.

Maybe a sail maker could complete all this but if you were adding the soft shackles to an existing sail (and making you own soft shackles0 it seems to be quite a skilled project.

 

[Daydream believer]

You could just put a loop in one end of a line then put a plastic stopper on the line with a knot to adjust to the required length. . If you passed the line twice round the sail & knotted it with an overhand knot you would not have to stitch anything. The stopper would pass through the loop to hold it. Do not make the loop too big so the stopper does not shake out. Quick cheap & easy

 

[Kukri]

I’m just looking at my finite supply of piston hanks and the fearsome price of them - I don’t want to have the staysail on a roller, as she is only a part time cutter, so to speak...

 

[flaming]

I’m just looking at my finite supply of piston hanks and the fearsome price of them - I don’t want to have the staysail on a roller, as she is only a part time cutter, so to speak...

If by this you mean it's a removable inner forestay, then you should very seriously consider a furled sail with the halyard forming the stay.

For example in this pic that sail does not have a stay, but is set furled. Can be done with a dynema luff sewn into the sail, or more high tech by building the necessary reinforcement into the sail in the form of carbon weaves.

On a small boat a Dynema halyard is enough to get the required tension, on a larger boat a halyard lock and a downhaul is the way to go.

 

[dansaskip]

I would have thought that chafe would be a problem and soft shackles wouldn't last long used like that.

 

[RobbieW]

I would have thought that chafe would be a problem and soft shackles wouldn't last long used like that.

That was my thought too

 

[Neeves]

We have had 2 unstayed headsails. One had a dyneema torque rope luff the other had two conventional dyneema luff ropes with little sheaves (sort of sheaves) top and bottom, keeping the 2 luffs separated. We furled them the same way - round their own luff.

You do need to be able to crank the tension up or the luffs sag - there is a danger the core of these highly tensioned ropes slip within the braided cover - and we leave the halyard on the winch (which means you need a dedicated winch when you use the sails.

I am sure there are other variants.

I have a suspicion Kukri already has existing forestays or inner forestays and existing sails and is trying to devine a way of simply using what he has as easily as possible.

I must admit that hanking on a storm jib, especially on Kukri is a task for the younger crew man (or men, or women). I'd prefer something that needed less time on the bow.

Jonathan

I hope halyard locks are better now than the ones I used on Etchells!

 

[Iliade]

I bought ten long series stainless steel shackles from eBay for £9.15 for that job, as per Suhaili.

Soft shackles will wear and are a bit of a faff, but I see no real problem with using them. At least they will not wear the halyard! Plus you can undo them with a knife if you're in a rush.

 

[Daydream believer]

- there is a danger the core of these highly tensioned ropes slip within the braided cover - and we leave the halyard on the winch (which means you need a dedicated winch when you use the sails.

Like this you mean

 

[TernVI]

Personally I think being able to operate the piston hanks with one hand is absolutley crucial.
It's 'one hand for yourself' up the pointy end sometimes.

You could use something else if there were no situations where you'd want to remove the sail, or hank it on in a breeze.
Long shackles with allen key heads are an option, less for other sails to catch on.

 

[Daydream believer]

Personally I think being able to operate the piston hanks with one hand is absolutley crucial.
It's 'one hand for yourself' up the pointy end sometimes.

Do not think that I ever managed to hank a sail on with one hand when i had piston hanks.

 

[Neeves]

I wondered if it is possible to source smaller than normal stainless steel carabiners - try a rock climbing shop. I too thought of shackles, if you were attaching the sail - in anticipation, you'd want clevis pins (captive pins) that don't fall out.

Jonathan

 

[TernVI]

Do not think that I ever managed to hank a sail on with one hand when i had piston hanks.

I got competent at keeping one hand firmly on the stay.
Can't see how you're going to do that with soft shackles or other 'solutions'.
A carabiner type of thing has potential, but you need to know that another halyard cannot enter and become trapped.

You don't want to end up like one yacht I raced on, which had marks on the tuffluff headfoil, allegedly from the bowman's teeth.

Sounds like the OP is finding out the true costs of a big old boat with parts beyond their sell by date.

 

[Roberto]

These may be a one-hand alternative.

Though I would not use soft shackles as jib hanks, should you need locking soft shackles you may make them like this, just leave some space between the two tails before making the button/diamond knot, thread the noose inside then lock like a normal soft shackle. I made plenty for all sorts of applications.

 

[Kukri]

Thanks everyone, particularly Roberto.

The problem is simply the exorbitant cost of piston hanks in the size required. They come from Germany, and they were seventy quid plus VAT each before Brexit. The only customers seem to be sail training boats, and this is a tiny market, so I fancy the makers will soon lose interest, (if they haven’t already...)?

There are two sails that go on the staysail stay; the working staysail and the storm jib. Both have good piston hanks for now and I have a stock of spares for another one and a half staysails.

When they wear out I will go for Roberto’s Wichard solution. This may be the only time that Wichard fittings look cheap!?

 

[scruff]

If by this you mean it's a removable inner forestay, then you should very seriously consider a furled sail with the halyard forming the stay.

For example in this pic that sail does not have a stay, but is set furled. Can be done with a dynema luff sewn into the sail, or more high tech by building the necessary reinforcement into the sail in the form of carbon weaves.

On a small boat a Dynema halyard is enough to get the required tension, on a larger boat a halyard lock and a downhaul is the way to go.

Thats interesting. If I understand you correctly its basically a big boy version of the furling system found on many dinghies?

 

[scruff]

These may be a one-hand alternative.

I had these on my old folkboat #1. They worked very well, however I suspect the OP has a boat 6x the size of a folkboat so not sure how they will scale up in size / effort...

 

[Kukri]

I had these on my old folkboat #1. They worked very well, however I suspect the OP has a boat 6x the size of a folkboat so not sure how they will scale up in size / effort...

Your testimonial is of great interest - Wichard make them in various sizes and even the biggest are cheaper than the piston hanks (just!).

(If I can go one size down they are much cheaper... “A” is OK (10mm inner forestay) if “B” fits the sails...)
My worry was whether they flog open but if they don’t on a Folkboat they won’t on mine.
So thanks indeed - problem solved!

These are the biggest - “A” 24mm, “B” 15mm

 

[Roberto]

I had these on my old folkboat #1. They worked very well, however I suspect the OP has a boat 6x the size of a folkboat so not sure how they will scale up in size / effort...

I just checked, Wichard make them in both bronze and stainless steel, sizes 50-55-65mm.

There are some cheaper ones (though I never tested them), the biggest one is 90mm, 6euro/piece, a bit suspiciously low (?)
Mousqueton pour foc à rabattre - inox - 50 mm

edit: the link says "50mm" but there is window "Taille" where one can choose 90mm

BTW I have them on my heavy wind jib, the bronze Wichard ones. They work very well. Also, I once had to replace a few grommets where the hank was tied (the grommets corroded by themselves), it was possible to slowly open up the "hammered" finger of the hank to free it, then hammer it back into place, maybe miraculously but no hank "finger" was broken I could use them all a second time.