Smaller headsail??

[bluedragon]

I've been thinking for some time about getting a smaller headsail for the furler on my Halcyon 27. Like most older boats with masthead rigs and hanked-on sails, a previous owner chose a full size genoa for the conversion to furling gear. I find that for reasons of comfortable coastal cruising in F3-5 winds, or boat handling under sail in confined waters, there is more often than not quite a few rolls in the headsail. The Halcyon was originally sold with a working jib about a third smaller in area than the optional genoa...so this was I suppose the best size for average usage and conditions...the genoa option being for light airs and racing. I'm thinking about getting a new headsail made for the furler about this original jib size, then using this as the everyday sail, switching to the genoa for longer settled weather passages when needed. It's no big deal to change the two sails, though I wouldn't do it at sea as a rule unless in settled weather. The benefit would be that under most conditions I don't have a furled headsail with its shape and efficiency issues, and if I do hit higher winds then a few rolls in a working jib is going to be a lot more useful than big genoa wound up halfway. Has anyone else gone down this road? Comments or problems (except for the obvious one of the wind dropping with a little jib up!)

 

[CSFenwick]

We're in the process of doing the same thing on our Moody 38. It currently only has a 140% genoa that’s fine up to 15 knots or so of wind but above that it has to be furled. By the time we’re at 20 knots it’s the size of the fore-triangle but has too much belly leading to a lot of heeling and ultimately awful weather helm. I did some asking around on the Moody owner’s forum and quite a few people seem to have at least two furling headsails which they use depending on conditions. So at the LBS we splashed out on a new 95% headsail from Kemp (they called it a No. 3 genoa). The downside is of course that we'll need to plan a sail change carefully - not wanting to have to unfurl the 140% in climbing wind. The hope is that the accuracy of forecasts in this country are generally such that we’ll know if a blow of F5+ is likely and my plan would be to have the correct headsail on before leaving the marina. That's the theory anyway. Have to wait until we're back sailing before I know if it's worth anything in practice – but it did give me an excuse to buy a new sail!

 

[MarkJohnson12345]

I sailed a Halcyon 27, mostly single handed. I agree with what you are trying to achieve. I found Eilidh sailed just as well with a working jib, as she did with a large genoa, except of course in light winds. Being single handed I appreciated the lighter load of the jib.

With a furling jib, I do not see a solution to your problem. Eilidh had a hoisted foresail, and the choice of a storm, working jib and a genoa. Hoisting was not a real problem, but not as easy as the furling sail. Even in strong winds and big seas, I felt quite safe changing the foresail.

Regards

 

[pvb]

Yes...

Did the same thing shortly after I bought my boat. Found the original, 6 year old, furling jib in a bag in the forecabin - it had hardly been used. I find it sets better, speed isn't greatly affected (I'm only cruising anyway), boat sails more upright. As I often sail single-handed, I also appreciate the fact that I can see under the jib much easier than seeing under the genny.

 

[Guest]

I belong to those who believe that generally a Designer knows the boat better than others ...

If he along with the sailloft put together a sail plan for a boat - it is there for a reason. Ok we know about tweaks and bits like higher aspect ratio for a Macwester 26 mainsail etc. - but again I say the Designer is close to what is best.

I know a very good example of this :

I have involvement with one of the best Race / Cruise boats available ex Baltic - Ridas 35. This boat of the stocks will win races and its sisters outpace X class again and again.
Anyway back to the story ... an ex Olympic Skipper decided that he knew better and altered the rig and plan on the 35 - reckoning he would beat all hands down. Ridas himself - World-Class Race skipper himself - advised to stay with stock design ... But no the spec went in, Ridas were instructed to supply ... which they did exactly to order.
The boat was fast - but never won a race for 3 years ... It took the 3 years to bit by bit return the boat to near stock spec. ! Then it won ......

 

[nmelton]

We went down this route with our previous boat, a Sadler 29. It was of working jib size and proved to be extremely useful. Even in moderate conditions the boat's performance did not seem to suffer a great deal and if anything proved to be more close winded. We now have the same arrangement for our Moody 336.

As someone has already mentioned the biggest decision is deciding which sail to use before you set off. Under normal conditions, being naturally lazy, it seems to be to use the one already rigged!!! Joking apart, the increased visibility in busy Solent waters is a very definite advantage.

 

[bluedragon]

Wow...thanks guys...so I'm not the first to think of this idea then /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif!! Looks like I need to find a sailmaker...

 

[KRG]

My boat is of 1973 vintage so I have a typical masthead, 150% headsail, rig of the time and I have grappled with similar questions. I have opted for hanked on head sails and slab reefing, the reasons are simplicity and choice of headsail size and cloth weight.

I looked into headsail furling with the idea that I could have a suit of sails and choose the correct size for the conditions, what put me off the idea was the fact that having put a few rolls in the headsail and then deciding I wanted a smaller sail I would have to unfurl the whole sail to drop it, not a good situation so I have stayed with hanks and I'm really happy with it.

To change the headsail with relative ease only requires altering course downwind briefly to blanket the headsail, quick change and off I go. Having another headsail ready isn't a big deal.

When I sail with my children I always rig the working jib which is about 100% so they can join in with out too much winch loading etc. and I find the boat sails perfectly well, she's marginally slower and wont point quite so high and is more prone to weather helm but this can be trimmed out, under normal situations I would reef the main first and then shorten the headsail.

so if you have the large sail why not try it with a smaller one, it just gives you some more choice.

 

[William_H]

Yes definitely if you find that you are often sailing with rolls in the jib then it is too big. Rolls in the jib mean incorrect sheeting point for the sheet and poor wind across the front of the jib. ie jib right out is the best sail shape.
You might consider an additional sail a genacher to hoist forward of the forestay for really light wind sailing albeit not so close to the wind.
No I don't agree with Small Boat champ every thing about sail plan is a compromise. A compromise which may not suit your sailing style and typical wind activity so you can well slew the commpromise to suit yourself.
In my case over the years I have reduced the mast height and mainsail area to move the optimum from light wind racing to suit the more heavy wind racing we do in realiity. I tis far better
regards olewill
ollewill

 

[Guest]

Sheeting angle and point ...

So many boats go around with poor lead on the sheet to jib / genny when a simple mod will solve it easily.

The other point about poor furled genny shape is one that is true but can be reduced with the same simple mod.

So short line with a small block on the end. Pass line through sheet eye / traveller on deck and line back to a cleat or other suitable belaying point. Now pass the sheet through this block and not through the normal sheet eye / traveller. Trial this arrangement while adjusting the "Barber-hauler" line to raise / lower the sheet lead.

It is amazing what shape change and effect it has on the genny .... a good example here from my ex-race boat :>

and here coming up to overtake ...>

Yes they are hanked on sails ... but no difference really as the main point is the clew raises / lowers with different sails and also furling of a genny. Most sheet travellers just cannot cope with such variation in angle. The Barber-hauler goes a long way to cure that.
A boat / sail combination that was poor can be sorted to near optimum with this ......

It's worth a try before spending hard earned dosh !!

My UK boat has the worst genny lead possible .... it simply defies all logic ... I think the guy who set the traveller etc. just found a convenient flat spot to bolt it down ... !! I often run the sheets back to my spinnaker sheet points at stern 1/4's and then hauler them down ....

 

[Slow_boat]

Re: Sheeting angle and point ...

You could try a smaller yankee cut headsail while you're at it. The improved visibility to leeward is a definate advantage on a cruising boat and the pointing abitity doesn't seem to be effected.

And I don't agree that the designer always knows best. Look at the hideous tiny main big genny rigs of the seventies or the need to get the centre of effort forward on many others to counter excesive 'designed in' weather helm. What I would say is that the original design is a good starting point.

 

[Guest]

Designer ....

Slight correction there .... I did not say Designer is 100% right ... I was promoting the designer knows the boat as he designed it ... and I did remark that there are issues such as Macwesters etc. that do need a tweak ...

Your statement that Designers base is a good starting point is pretty well what I said ....

Back in 70's etc. - there were some awful designs - but they have passed over and more modern designs now have aid of computer and better facilities to get a more reasonable answer. I don't say it is all solved yet - but near enough that it takes a serious amount of knowledge to better ....

At the end of the day - the designer is trying to cater for an envisaged user and general use ... unless specific design such as pure race etc. Bit like the family car vs the Formula 1 job ...