Jim@sea
Well-Known Member
I have had my Colvic Watson 23'6 for a year now and I am delighted with it. The fact that I have not yet had it in the water or been out to sea is really irrelevant.
Small Motorsailer
- Thread starter dylanwinter
- Start date
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
"
I agree with all that, the Bermudan rig is like Microsoft Windows, sort of works OK on almost every machine but not brilliantly on any and blames the user when it goes wrong.
A wingsail, junk or gaff may be better but it's going to cost a fortune getting it right and in the process you'll knock 30% off the resale value. Apart from the gaff it probably won't look right anyway.
What would be involved in changing Lazy Kipper's Bermudan rig to a gaff? We have a main mast about 37 feet long, boom is 11 feet and can't be longer. What sail area would we gain and what points of sailing would it be better on?
I agree with all that, the Bermudan rig is like Microsoft Windows, sort of works OK on almost every machine but not brilliantly on any and blames the user when it goes wrong.
A wingsail, junk or gaff may be better but it's going to cost a fortune getting it right and in the process you'll knock 30% off the resale value. Apart from the gaff it probably won't look right anyway.
What would be involved in changing Lazy Kipper's Bermudan rig to a gaff? We have a main mast about 37 feet long, boom is 11 feet and can't be longer. What sail area would we gain and what points of sailing would it be better on?
Caer Urfa
Well-Known Member
There are already some Colvic Watsons 'Gaff rigged', this is a CW 34'-6" complete with bow sprit and boy does she shift and boy does she take some handling!!!
Mike
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Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Wow!
dylanwinter
Well-Known Member
Poignard
Well-Known Member
That was the view of Conor O'Brien (owner of Saiorse and author of 'Across Three Oceans'* etc. although he suggested square rig and a powerful engine.
It seems very sensible to me.
* A good read by the way :encouragement:
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Hmm. I admit, that gaff-rigged Colvic looks every inch my kind of boat...
...but regarding our starting point as the Fisher 25, I had hoped to draw out some optimism, that given a bermudian rig as tall as the sloop version and rather greater in overall area, the F25 might retain her tough all-weather appeal, whilst achieving satisfying sailing in the light winds which currently leave the standard ketch version dead in the water...
...I assume the reason for doubt in this area is the contentment of motorsailer owners & buyers hitherto. If they bought the boat always happily expecting to furl sail and motor to windward, they're unlikely ever to have asked whether the hull might go better if the designer had placed distinct stress on her sailing ability.
That isn't a complaint.
Must be a question of money and the commitment/investment of buyers. Who would be prepared to sink money into a big, costly rig if it is placed on a hull that can never equal the rig's potential? But the consequence must be an unfortunate inevitability - that when built, the tubby hulls of small motorsailers are only ever given small, relatively cheap rigs.
Actually, as I've only ever been interested in secondhand boats, the lower cost of re-rigging an old yacht with used masts (which needn't have been the type originally specified) must leave plenty of room to experiment without paying silly prices.
The only problem with yacht design as we know it, seems to be the necessity for builders to make a profit from their output...so we don't often see what might have been!
E39mad
Well-Known Member
Increased sail area does not always equate to increased speed - the correct sails for the conditions are more important. The problem is that one suit of medium/heavy cut sails is a massive compromise if wanting light weather performance and is further inhibited by them being on furlers.
A small boat is further inhibited by it's lack of stowage to carry lightwind sails. You also have the hassle of changing for different wind strengths. One answer is to have a lightwind genoa or MPS rigged ahead of the std genoa - just needs to rolled up and then unfurled for each tack!
A small boat is further inhibited by it's lack of stowage to carry lightwind sails. You also have the hassle of changing for different wind strengths. One answer is to have a lightwind genoa or MPS rigged ahead of the std genoa - just needs to rolled up and then unfurled for each tack!
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Cornish Bluenose
Member
Having just picked up this thread...fascinating reading...
I own a Cox Master Mariner with bilge keels..and last winter was ashore next to a Fisher 25, what a lovely boat both inside and out..but what a lovely price..! My boat has full standing headroom comfortable berths, galley and spacious heads. I just love the inside wheel with all the benefits mentioned in earlier posts. I have a good sized Beta 20 which is more than adequate for a boat of 6.85m. I have bilge keels great for winter storage and drying out.
I would love a Fisher...but cannot justify that sort of money tied up in a boat. I also looked at a Colvic Watson, Swin Ranger and a Cox 22 (same hull as the Swin Ranger) and a Hardy 20 M/S. The Master Mariner has a deep central keel and bilge plates moulded into the keel. There are also some with just a central keel. They sail and motor..or motor and sail..you choose, but it is a pleasure to stay warm and dry with a coffee in hand.
For me the choice was simple..finding a good boat locally..within budget..we can all dream but in the end we cannot all afford Fishers..and there are many older designs that will do a similar job..and cost a lot less. The advantage of the Hardy and Swin Ranger is that they can also be stored at home during the winter and trailed to different cruising grounds. You would need a large car or 4x4, but it would be possible to tow to different parts of the UK each season and extend your cruising ground far beyond what could normally be sailed.
I own a Cox Master Mariner with bilge keels..and last winter was ashore next to a Fisher 25, what a lovely boat both inside and out..but what a lovely price..! My boat has full standing headroom comfortable berths, galley and spacious heads. I just love the inside wheel with all the benefits mentioned in earlier posts. I have a good sized Beta 20 which is more than adequate for a boat of 6.85m. I have bilge keels great for winter storage and drying out.
I would love a Fisher...but cannot justify that sort of money tied up in a boat. I also looked at a Colvic Watson, Swin Ranger and a Cox 22 (same hull as the Swin Ranger) and a Hardy 20 M/S. The Master Mariner has a deep central keel and bilge plates moulded into the keel. There are also some with just a central keel. They sail and motor..or motor and sail..you choose, but it is a pleasure to stay warm and dry with a coffee in hand.
For me the choice was simple..finding a good boat locally..within budget..we can all dream but in the end we cannot all afford Fishers..and there are many older designs that will do a similar job..and cost a lot less. The advantage of the Hardy and Swin Ranger is that they can also be stored at home during the winter and trailed to different cruising grounds. You would need a large car or 4x4, but it would be possible to tow to different parts of the UK each season and extend your cruising ground far beyond what could normally be sailed.
Seajet
...
There used to be a Cox Master Mariner on our moorings, I remember the owner - who went across the Channel a few times - had fitted a radar reflector and light on a stump mast, that was before hi tech reflectors & transponders and arguments on forums but it seemed to work for him !
A lot to be said for a comfy wheelhouse on a boat which will take the ground.
A lot to be said for a comfy wheelhouse on a boat which will take the ground.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
True that. The Cox MM is a cracking little boat.
DownWest
Well-Known Member
Just read this thread for fun. I actually have the original drawings for the Cox Master Mariner on the shelf above my desk, as it was designed by the old man, along with the Cox 21. Not his type of boat, but what the client required.
Jim@sea
Well-Known Member
I was also ashore with my Colvic Watson 23.6 next to a Fisher 25 and as I worked on my boat I kept looking over at the Fisher 25 and I just could not see where the extra 1" 6" was, I had tried to buy the Fisher the year before when it was £22,000 but it was sold the day before I made my mind up to make an offer. So I carried on looking for a Motor Sailor and came across this Colvic Watson which was less than half the price of the Fisher and had a better Power to Foot Length Ratio.
Anyway looking at the Fisher I decided to measure it and not having a tape measure I used a rope along the waterline, and the Fisher 25 is smaller than the Colvic 23'6. And although the difference is only around 4" its more than that as the Fisher has a transom hung rudder which is about 12" wide so if you add them both together the Fisher is about 16" shorther than the Colvic. Mind you as I as measuring along the waterline if the Colvic had a wider beam than the Fisher that would explain it.
The other reason I went for the Colvic was Power to Foot Ratio. In my opinion most Motor Sailers are underpowered. My 23'6 Colvic has a 50 hp engine which seems about right.
My last Motor Sailer was a 33ft Nauticat with a 72 hp Perkins which gave a 2.18 Hp/Ft and the Colvic is 2.12 so more or less the same. Which is why I bought it.
There are a few cheap Colvics for sale at the moment, if I was buying a boat like this again I would rather buy a Colvic and improve it than buy a Fisher at a high price, although the Fisher will always sell quicker. but for me its what its like out at sea that counts.
Mataji
Well-Known Member
LM27s and LM24s have had a few mentions along this thread. I am a great fan and last year took my LM27 from the Clyde to Skye and back, covering over 700 miles along the way, mostly single handed. The main advantage over the Fishers is that I can sail my LM from the cockpit using the tiller. The wheelhouse is only used when the weather turns foul or when I am cooking or making tea. The galley is in the wheelhouse so I can keep watch, and the saloon does not smell after the mackerel have been fried.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
LM's have a great reputation and bullet proof depreciation.
Scotty_Tradewind
Well-Known Member
Way off the OP. This is a mighty fine yacht.
They point well with good speed and all things favourable in it's upkeep and in the right hands, will get you through an Atlantic storm.
I'm surprised this is less than 30k. If it's in generally good condition it's worth a look but a twin keeled ditch crawler it is not!
S.
NUTMEG
Well-Known Member
A mate of mine has an LM27 and she is a good sailor, at least he says so
. My only criticism of them is the 'open cuddy' style. One thing I like about enclosed wheelhouse motor sailers is the total protection when living aboard, particularly at this time of year. The Cox has a fully enclosed W/H and would, as I suggested earlier in this thread, make a great all season fishing boat.
Mataji
Well-Known Member
A mate of mine has an LM27 and she is a good sailor, at least he says so
Most LMs made for the UK market do not have open cuddy style wheel houses but have a bulkhead and doors between the wheelhouse and cockpit.
One memorable day was sailing from Campbletown to Tarbert. Wind force 4 to 5 all day and right behind me. Continuous rain. Just set the Genoa, put on the autopilot, and shut the wheelhouse doors. I had to go out into the cockpit a few times to adjust the genny but spent most of the day warm and dry and having a great sail.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
A mate of mine has an LM27 and she is a good sailor, at least he says so
I'll not disagree about the wheelhouse, nor would the kids, the dogs, the guests, the old parents etc etc
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
This is probably another thread in the making...(time for a new one after 200 posts?)...but I wonder which popular cruisers could most easily be converted to wheelhouse motor-sailers, with a few hundred pounds' worth of materials and a few weeks' work? I feel sure the ugly home-conversions you sometimes see are the fault of uninspired design, not poor concept.