Small Motorsailer

dancrane said:
I see. Thanks for that.

The idea of a boat which never needs reefing is pretty alien to me. I'll have to think about it (and imagine the hassle of rebuilding deck & rig to withstand the bigger area) before I attempt to promote the "RORC Fisher 25"... :o
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I can see where you're going with this. Should we merge this thread with the one about a suitable boat for "The Fastnet"?
 
Gentlemen, lest the thread submerge into humour alone, I was perfectly serious about the idea (although it is only an idea) of upping the sail-area of a Fisher 25. I agree that the sloop looks pretty purposeful - much more so than the ketch - but I can believe it's still not nearly as much as the hull deserves, and could cope with.

I can see - and accept - that a total re-rig (plus testing & adjusting) wouldn't be cheap...but I also reckon the only reason we haven't seen a really fine-sailing motorsailer, is because customers believe any motorsailer is necessarily a total compromise...which has led to the assumption that adding helm-protection invariably means only average sailing.

If indeed heavyweight round-bilge designs are so well ballasted that their rigs are imperiled before they heel hard over, the process of giving a Fisher or Colvic a bigger and substantially tougher rig (and bracing it with more rugged shroud bases in the hull) might allow them to sail as willingly in 8 knots of wind as they currently can in 16...

...but the freedom to reef her in more than a force 4 would still enable the high, heavy hulls to give the same pleasant weatherproof feel when it blows hard.

Probably nobody will do it...but to me it's a shame that 'trawler' motorsailers reinforce their image by not, from the start, specifying their rigs as generously as pure-sail designs.
 
dancrane said:
Gentlemen, lest the thread submerge into humour alone, I was perfectly serious about the idea (although it is only an idea) of upping the sail-area of a Fisher 25. I agree that the sloop looks pretty purposeful - much more so than the ketch - but I can believe it's still not nearly as much as the hull deserves, and could cope with.

I can see - and accept - that a total re-rig (plus testing & adjusting) wouldn't be cheap...but I also reckon the only reason we haven't seen a really fine-sailing motorsailer, is because customers believe any motorsailer is necessarily a total compromise...which has led to the assumption that adding helm-protection invariably means only average sailing.

If indeed heavyweight round-bilge designs are so well ballasted that their rigs are imperiled before they heel hard over, the process of giving a Fisher or Colvic a bigger and substantially tougher rig (and bracing it with more rugged shroud bases in the hull) might allow them to sail as willingly in 8 knots of wind as they currently can in 16...

...but the freedom to reef her in more than a force 4 would still enable the high, heavy hulls to give the same pleasant weatherproof feel when it blows hard.

Probably nobody will do it...but to me it's a shame that 'trawler' motorsailers reinforce their image by not, from the start, specifying their rigs as generously as pure-sail designs.
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Hi Dan

You raise some interesting points, but there are other ways to increase your sail area without having a taller mast, A) fitting a bowsprit which can give you a very large Genoa can make a big difference, b) extending the boom length giving a larger main sail again making a big difference, both which I have seen done very successfully many times on Colvic Watson's but I have yet to see a bowsprit on a Fisher.

Again there is a big difference in 'motor/sailing' and just 'sailing' a motor sailer, I for one spend almost 95% of the time under sail only but like other yachtsmen setting the sails right is an art (I am still learning after 26 years) and I found how you might set up a Fisher 25 under sail is not the same as you might set up a Colvic Watson 23'-6" under sail and the bigger either get again the set up changes .

However what you may also forget is that most people who buy a motor sailer did not buy them to 'race in' as most are quite happy to plow along up to 6/7 knots safely in most sea conditions.

What they did want to buy was something that give them the best of both worlds sailing with bags of safety!

Mike
 
Thanks for your response Mike - I believe every word. For the record, my original super-ketch idea for the F25 wasn't going to be any taller than the standard sloop - but would have had the ketch mainmast & sail as her mizzen, sloop-mast placed ahead of the ketch's main-mast step, and a bowsprit and big genoa out front.

I can see that Fisher-buyers aren't racing folk; there are plenty of less comfortable, more demanding designs for those who really need speed...personally I don't find racing-lines and the associated comfort-compromises very appealing; I'm a huge fan of the Fishers, or I wouldn't be writing here...but I reckon the thrill of sailing any yacht is taming the free power of the wind to best effect - so if I bought any vessel with sails, I'd want the rig to be equal to the task of driving the yacht - even in light airs.

I've never raced and don't wish to start - but I have an old, sprightly racing dinghy which I'm gradually taming into a more versatile fast day-cruiser. Likewise I'd like to see the "bags of safety" style of the Fisher, encompassing a really rewarding sailplan - because, why not? :encouragement:
 
dancrane said:
Gentlemen, lest the thread submerge into humour alone, I was perfectly serious about the idea (although it is only an idea) of upping the sail-area of a Fisher 25. I agree that the sloop looks pretty purposeful - much more so than the ketch - but I can believe it's still not nearly as much as the hull deserves, and could cope with.

I can see - and accept - that a total re-rig (plus testing & adjusting) wouldn't be cheap...but I also reckon the only reason we haven't seen a really fine-sailing motorsailer, is because customers believe any motorsailer is necessarily a total compromise...which has led to the assumption that adding helm-protection invariably means only average sailing.

If indeed heavyweight round-bilge designs are so well ballasted that their rigs are imperiled before they heel hard over, the process of giving a Fisher or Colvic a bigger and substantially tougher rig (and bracing it with more rugged shroud bases in the hull) might allow them to sail as willingly in 8 knots of wind as they currently can in 16...

...but the freedom to reef her in more than a force 4 would still enable the high, heavy hulls to give the same pleasant weatherproof feel when it blows hard.

Probably nobody will do it...but to me it's a shame that 'trawler' motorsailers reinforce their image by not, from the start, specifying their rigs as generously as pure-sail designs.
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A Salar 40 has a big rig.
 
Caer Urfa said:
Hi Dan

You raise some interesting points, but there are other ways to increase your sail area without having a taller mast, A) fitting a bowsprit which can give you a very large Genoa can make a big difference, b) extending the boom length giving a larger main sail again making a big difference, both which I have seen done very successfully many times on Colvic Watson's but I have yet to see a bowsprit on a Fisher.

Again there is a big difference in 'motor/sailing' and just 'sailing' a motor sailer, I for one spend almost 95% of the time under sail only but like other yachtsmen setting the sails right is an art (I am still learning after 26 years) and I found how you might set up a Fisher 25 under sail is not the same as you might set up a Colvic Watson 23'-6" under sail and the bigger either get again the set up changes .

However what you may also forget is that most people who buy a motor sailer did not buy them to 'race in' as most are quite happy to plow along up to 6/7 knots safely in most sea conditions.

What they did want to buy was something that give them the best of both worlds sailing with bags of safety!

Mike
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Fisher 34's and 37's have bow sprits in their later versions.
 
Great-looking boats.

Interesting to know whether the bigger Fishers carry proportionately more sail than the smaller ones - and whether, in consequence, the bigger rigs give them significantly more shove in lighter winds.
 
The ratio between weight and rig power has to be taken into account, each 10% of extra weight requires 25% more power to push it along. So reducing a motor sailer's weight will increase its proportional sail area. A stripped out motor sailer would just be pointless - buy a Sigma 38 and strip that out if you want to sail very fast in a big monohull. But some weight can go, for example, our diesel tanks are two enormous thick walled mild steel tanks, replacing them with trek tanks is on the to do list. My estimate is that they weigh 400kg - that will save a lot of weight! Maybe one day the engine will need to be changed and that will weight 250kg less. So it's possible to imagine by removing or changing other items we could lose a tonne. That would give us a proportional sail area increase of 20%.

I had a long and fascinating discussion with Paul Lees of Crusader sails as we planned sail changes for LK, when we drew up the changes that could be done for £10k he said, listen mate, I've got to be honest with you at most you're going to gain a knot, is it worth it? Instead he suggested we spend £1k on a sail that gives us two knots extra in the range 60 to 170 degrees and in wind speeds of 6 to 16 knots - that describes the vast majority of our sailing, and I suspect most people's sailing.
 
Dan, leaving aside all jest, I think the Nicholson I posted a few pages back would give you all the shelter you might want combined with a very good sailing performance: -
http://www.boatshed.com/camper__nicholson_38_ketch-boat-170266.html

It isn't a trawler yacht but a proper centre cockpit yacht with a wheel shelter; add a decent canvas section to fully enclose the cockpit and you have all the shelter you are talking about. My only concern would be what you would do on a warm day with the sun shining.

An alternative would be the Moody Halberdier a 36 footer which apparently sails very well : - http://yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/halberdier/moody-halberdier.htm
 
Given that a motorsailer is not going to point as high as a modern cruiser/racer in any case, why have a rig which is optimised for windward work?

In my view, the Fisher 25, Colvic Watsons and similar boats would be better with a decent-sized gaff or junk rig, so that they would be a pleasure off the wind, with much better performance in practical cruising terms.

Windward work is best done under engine or motor sailing. As, indeed, is the practice with most sailing cruisers I see under way.

Being hard on the wind is a miserable business at sea, although it can be fun inshore for short periods. At least you are out of the spray in a motorsailer's wheelhouse.
 
I ought to stress that all my thoughts are just thoughts - although when I can consider buying a yacht, details from this thread will play a part in my decision-making.

It certainly would be naive to build a towering rig on a heavy motorsailer, in hopes of exceeding her displacement maximum. And I'm sure ALL yachts of a certain age would benefit from weight-shedding...

...and I've often said that if somebody designed bolt-on hardtops (such as Merc made for the SL in the '90s) for the cockpits of popular models of pure sailing cruiser, I mightn't take such an interest in motorsailers...

...but as it is, designers of sleek sloops seem disinclined to consider that their boats' buyers might quite like to sail a few winter weekends without necessarily wanting to dress like an arctic diver...

...so, as I anticipate staying mainly in chilly UK waters, the range of yachts with sheltered helms isn't very broad - and those with fully enclosable, heated wheelhouses are fewer still.

I like the Nicholson and I've always greatly admired the Salar...all further suggestions are welcome. :encouragement:

P.S... I should add how much I like the Moody Halberdier - wonderful lines. I can believe she sails well, but I could easily live those looks & that layout, even if she was a confirmed slug.
 
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Dylans original post was 'what could he find under £20k' so many of those nice boats mentioned would be well over that budget.

As a side line for years I do Pre Buying Inspection visits for new buyers of Colvic Watson's of all sizes (my fourth this month alone) and you can buy

a nice CW 23'-6" or 25'-6" under £20k, BUT do your homework first as boy there are some horrors out there which I would not go across the local park lake in and this reflects on the old saying ' you gets what you pay for'.

Also a word of warning there are three motor sailers for sale at present as 'Colvic Watsons' when they are not, two are a Colvic 23 and the other an IP23,so the buyer is not going to buy what he 'thinks' he is buying.


Mike
 
Sandgrounder said:
Dan, leaving aside all jest, I think the Nicholson I posted a few pages back would give you all the shelter you might want combined with a very good sailing performance: -
http://www.boatshed.com/camper__nicholson_38_ketch-boat-170266.html

It isn't a trawler yacht but a proper centre cockpit yacht with a wheel shelter; add a decent canvas section to fully enclose the cockpit and you have all the shelter you are talking about. My only concern would be what you would do on a warm day with the sun shining.

An alternative would be the Moody Halberdier a 36 footer which apparently sails very well : - http://yachtsnet.co.uk/archives/halberdier/moody-halberdier.htm
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The roof on a Nic 38 lifts off and stows in front of the wind shield.

I liked the idea of the Halberdier but somebody told me that they suffered from heavy weather helm.

No personal experience of either.
 
dancrane said:
...and I've often said that if somebody designed bolt-on hardtops (such as Merc made for the SL in the '90s) for the cockpits of popular models of pure sailing cruiser, I mightn't take such an interest in motorsailers...
.
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They exist. I have seen them proposed through Vetus even though they don't figure in their catalogue.
 
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