Small leak on rudder post

[kingsebi]

Before the first sail of the year I checked around the boat and found a small leak at the rudder post. There is one drop every twenty seconds, a bit more when the wheel is turned. I am not very concerned, as it is not a lot of water, but I would like to fix it anyways. The boat is new to me and I'm not sure how this works. I attach pictures.

Will it do to tighten the nuts around the flange? Or do I have to remove the quadrant? I'm hesitant, as I don't know what to expect. On my old boat I had Z-drives, so no rudder! Any ideas?

Edit: Boat is a Trident Marine Voyager 35. The water is seeping out between the stainless steel flange and the quadrant. Inside the stainless steel flange there supposedly is a shaft seal.

 

[pvb]

You could try tightening the 4 nuts on the square plate. It looks like there's been some sealant smeared around it in the past. I don't recognise the installation, but I imagine there may be some sort of seal in the circular housing immediately below the quadrant. Be aware that if you remove the quadrant, the rudder may disappear downwards into the sea!

I think your boat is a Trident Voyager 35. There doesn't seem to be an owners website, but I think there's a Facebook Trident/Warrior group, so you may be able to get some answers there.

 

[kingsebi]

Thanks pvb. I will leave the quadrant where it is! I know the sealent looks ludicrous. The previous owner surely had his approach to boat maintenance. He said there is a radial shaft seal inside the housing, which he replaced not long ago. I will try tightening the nuts and see if that stops the leak, otherwise this is going to be another job for the next haul out.

Doesn't risk to get much worse, does it?

Yes it's a Voyager 35. I don't have Facebook, but I might get an account to get access to that owners group, that sounds like what I need.

Edit: I couldn't find the owners group with google search, do you have a link?

 

[GrahamD]

I had the same problem on my Marcon 34, a centre cockpit yacht from the same era as the Warrior 35. We had an annoying leak around the rudder post letting in about half a litre each week. However it was not progressive.

After a number of unsuccessful attempts to cure it on my own using sealant etc on the top end, I employed a very experienced local boat builder who was happy to look at the problem with me. His advice was invaluable in coming up with a practical and effective solution. We decided to seal the bottom end as we worked out that the water was leaking up between the rudder post and the hull. We took the rudder out, used a hole cutter to cut away some of the fibreglass around the post, dried it out then epoxied and screwed in a delrin collar that we had machined to fit. So far, so good- it hasn’t leaked since

If you want any further info, please PM me.

 

[penfold]

I doubt tightening the fasteners on the upper big square flange will have any effect on the leak; if there is a rubber lip seal in the tube as described the fasteners don't have any relationship with the watertightness. Is the water definitely coming from the gap between the (looks like stainless steel?)tube with the big square flange and the quadrant? As the rudder tube seems to meet the hull in a flange with fasteners holding it on I speculate the tube/big square flange assembly is separate and acts to hold the rudder tube steady. Another possibility is that they are actually a single assembly and the large square flange is that large to allow the hole in the transverse frame/floor beam to be big enough to accommodate the flange that meets with the hull.

 

[Robin]

What boat please? your pic is 90 degs out without downloading and editing it but it looks like a westerly arrangement. We had one such on a W33 from 1978, had a small leak too which actually came from tiny perforations in the stainless steel rudder tube necessitatin eventually a new tube, not too painful a job or on the pocket but an irritating leak cured.

 

[kingsebi]

GrahamD: Thank you, I might contact you when I haul her out next time. I want to redo the whole arrangement. But for the moment she will stay in the water.

penfold: You articulate some of my thoughts and doubts. But if the stainless steel flange is only there to hold the rudder tube in place, why is there a seal between it and the supporting wood? And why is there sealent smeared around the seal? If your second speculation is correct and it is one single assembly, would that mean that tightening the nuts could help?

The water is definitely coming out from under the quadrant, the trace can be seen on both pictures.

Robin: The boat is a Trident Marine Voyager 35. Sorry for the picture, I forgot to edit it before uploading. Also not easy to make pictures in that part of the boat! I will keep your advice in mind for the next haul out.

 

[rogerthebodger]

The water is definitely coming out from under the quadrant, the trace can be seen on both pictures.

If the leak is between the quadrant and the upper stainless boss , I would think that the stainless steel boss has a lip seal in the boss which would be accessed by removing the quadrant.

If that is the case tightening down and bolts would hot help but could damage the smeared sealant and cause more leaks.

Does the rudder have a bottom support it it does you could remove the quadrant and possible replace the lip seal. If the rubber does not have a lower support leave it until you next lift out.

 

[Robin]

Another thought. if the leak is a t the top of the rudder tube and there is a lip seal, 2 possibilities, 1 is lip seal not working but 2 the boat is trimmed stern down as the seal should be well clear of water level at rest. I have seen one such on a warrior 35 (same hull?)

 

[kingsebi]

Rogershaw: No rudder support as far as I know. Looks like I'm going to live with it until the next lift out.

Robin: It's the same hull. You mean the problem could be that I have too much weight at the stern?

 

[penfold]

But if the stainless steel flange is only there to hold the rudder tube in place, why is there a seal between it and the supporting wood? And why is there sealent smeared around the seal?

If either of my speculations are correct, in normal circumstances there is no point in applying sealant here; if the leak has been occurring for a long time previous owners or boatyard employees may have applied the sealant to stop the water penetrating the wood the horizontal frame is made of and possibly causing rot. When you say seal what do you mean?

If your second speculation is correct and it is one single assembly, would that mean that tightening the nuts could help?

I don't see how it could? If it is a single assembly the two potential leak points are at the top between the rudder post and the tube seal(which is already leaking slightly) and the joint between the tube and the hull at the bottom, which is not leaking.

A separate and unrelated safety issue that I see is the bracket for the rudder position sensor on the rudder post; it appears to be at least partially obstructing the square section that I assume is for an emergency tiller. I would check whether this is the case and if it is obstructing it, if not having it altered immediately, make plans to have the bracket altered this winter.

 

[kingsebi]

With seal I mean rubber gasket. I hope that is the accurate term! It's hard to see on the pictures, but it's there between the flange and the wood. The fact that there is gasket made me think that there is something to be sealed. Why should it be there otherwise?

Thanks for the advice on the bracket, I will give it a look, but when I tried the emergency tiller it connected and worked normally. It's harder to move than the wheel though!

 

[Robin]

Rogershaw: No rudder support as far as I know. Looks like I'm going to live with it until the next lift out.

Robin: It's the same hull. You mean the problem could be that I have too much weight at the stern?

yes.

 

[kingsebi]

Robin: I would estimate that there are around 80kg in all three cockpit lockers together. Is that excessive? I live on board so the whole boat is well loaded, not only the stern.

Edit: Plus the outboard on the rail, another 20kg.

 

[Robin]

Robin: I would estimate that there are around 80kg in all three cockpit lockers together. Is that excessive? I live on board so the whole boat is well loaded, not only the stern.

Edit: Plus the outboard on the rail, another 20kg.

The total weight is one matter, the distribution fore and aft another, whilst best to keep the ends light keeping it level fore and aft and athwartships whilst stationary is the target.

 

[kingsebi]

I will see into that. I thought the distribution was kind of even though, atleast between fore and aft. Athwartahips surely got the most weight, with keel ballast, motor, water tanks and batteries.

 

[penfold]

With seal I mean rubber gasket. I hope that is the accurate term! It's hard to see on the pictures, but it's there between the flange and the wood. The fact that there is gasket made me think that there is something to be sealed. Why should it be there otherwise?

Good question; unless my assumptions are adrift from reality I don't understand why there's a rubber gasket, it should not be necessary.

 

[kingsebi]

That's exactly what I think. Another mystery of the boat... I will keep an eye on it and fix it when she comes out of the water in winter.

 

[kingsebi]

Another thought. if the leak is a t the top of the rudder tube and there is a lip seal, 2 possibilities, 1 is lip seal not working but 2 the boat is trimmed stern down as the seal should be well clear of water level at rest. I have seen one such on a warrior 35 (same hull?)

I shifted weight around to check if it has any effect, which it hasn't. Atleast the lockers are well organized now.