Sleeping at anchor - is a mid cabin a must ?

[MapisM]

I used to sleep in the bow cabin of the trawler but it was steel and round hull so it was almost totally silent...

If you are used to a steel displacement hull, you will never find a planing GRP boat even remotely comparable in terms of wave slapping noise, irrespective of size and cabin placement.
And I can tell you that because I've tried them all, including a wooden trawler for many years, and THAT was quite simply in another league in terms of noise, compared to anything else.
One night we were woken up by a bad bow pitching, because the wind turned and strenghtened to the point of needing to move elsewhere.
But even in those conditions, we had a deafening silence in the bow cabin, and it was only the movement that woke us up.
With plastic hulls, the cabin placement does matter, but only by a small margin, because the noise is transmitted by the hull material itself.
You can hear it also in aft cabin boats, in fact.
If you really can't stand wave slapping noise, you can forget plastic boats altogether, without even bother about the cabin placement.

 

[MapisM]

on my prio list very high is "open door and walk into engine room to check things", i always did this on the trawler on a daily basis

Again, forget that with ANY sub-60' planing boat.
While e/r access in the Sq58 is very far from requiring furniture unscrewing (aside from some extra-ordinary maintenance), I agree that it isn't one of her strongest points.
Competitors boats of similar size and vintage weren't much better, though: Prin 57, 'Hattan 56, Ferretti 57 (and I could list others that you probably never heard of, mine included) all have their pros and cons when it comes to e/r accessibility, but the arrangement is similar, and none of them offer door access.
Interestingly, at that size, I can only think of two older boats that on top of the hatch also allowed door access to the e/r: the Ferretti 175 and the Hudson 54 (which is one of those you probably never heard of). And also these, were very cramped inside anyway.
Problem is, you need a lot of iron to move 25 Tons on the water at 30+ knots.
That's the reason why I laugh at those who praise the e/r of Nordhavns and the likes: at any given size, making a decent e/r is MUCH easier with a trawler compared to a planing boat, for very obvious reasons.

 

[Portofino]

Again, forget that with ANY sub-60' planing boat.
While e/r access in the Sq58 is very far from requiring furniture unscrewing (aside from some extra-ordinary maintenance), I agree that it isn't one of her strongest points.
Competitors boats of similar size and vintage weren't much better, though: Prin 57, 'Hattan 56, Ferretti 57 (and I could list others that you probably never heard of, mine included) all have their pros and cons when it comes to e/r accessibility, but the arrangement is similar, and none of them offer door access.
Interestingly, at that size, I can only think of two older boats that on top of the hatch also allowed door access to the e/r: the Ferretti 175 and the Hudson 54 (which is one of those you probably never heard of). And also these, were very cramped inside anyway.
Problem is, you need a lot of iron to move 25 Tons on the water at 30+ knots.

Actually the early Itama range from 46 has bunks in the rear cabin against the transom .The bulk head fwd ( on the other side of the rear cabin ) has a full size walk in water tight door in the ER .
Once you step in to the ER you are flanked by two fibreglass tanks and the geny is in between .Iirc you step / climb over the geny to access the twin MAN 800 s or MTU 765 s .But nether the less there is door from this crew cabin .
As well as conventional hatch(s) in the cockpit , theses are more escape hatches and let light in .Normally you would walk in via the marinaros cabin , or he would .

Its a nice design feature afforded by the very central location of the ER allowing rear functional cabins .

My boat the 48 hull is longer and narrower, it’s not got this door because the rear cabin ( extra L ) is set up a twin not bunk s .
Instead I have TWO hatches in the cockpit floor .

Tbh I don’t know if anyone else has thought about this but having a second escape route in your ER is reassuring .Is it not ?
I mean if there’s a fire accidentally of course or something else blocking the ONE way out , chemical fume spillage as such like .

Which brings me round to mid cabins the thorny subject of a fire escape in the mid area , I mean a second way out .
I know some designs have a blatant hatch , some a concealed escape but nether the less a hatch .

When I did my research for Marina Loano Mr G popped up a boat fire a 60;ftr where there were fatalities iirc 3 Germans could not get out of the mid cabin trapped by the flames .That’s why i am tossing this into the equation.It’s real .
Most if not all Fwds cabins have a hatch in the bow area over the bed , so you can get up and out in hurry .

 

[Portofino]

Strike this one off the list Prinz .

Fire on yachts, 3 dead in Loano (Savona)

 

[MapisM]

Actually the early Itama range...

PF, if I may summarize your post, since you are talking to someone who is used to a trawler e/r:
In all Itamas, bar none, the e/r access is as shi!!y as in any other planing boat, period.

Let me put it this way:
For any given size, in a scale where 0 is totally unacceptable and 10 is perfect, e/r accessibility in most trawlers is anywhere between 8 and 10.
In planing boats (the good ones, mind!) it's somewhere between 2 and 3.
How relevant do you think it is, to someone who is used to a 8 or 9, if one of these boats is 2.8 and another is 2.4?

 

[MapisM]

When I did my research for Marina Loano Mr G popped up a boat fire a 60;ftr where there were fatalities iirc 3 Germans could not get out of the mid cabin trapped by the flames.
That’s why i am tossing this into the equation. It’s real.
Most if not all Fwds cabins have a hatch in the bow area over the bed , so you can get up and out in hurry.

The accident you are referring to is related to Southern Comfort, a 22m Maiora much larger than the boats which we are debating.
IIRC, the fire started from a BBQ astern, which wasn't fully turned off before going to sleep.
The 4 souls onboard woke up only when the boat was already engulfed in flames, and tried to escape from the ceiling hatch of the bow cabin.
But only one lady managed to get out, while the others, probably already intoxicated, were unable to get out and remained trapped inside.
Very sad indeed, but I fail to see how this can affect anyone's boat choice, TBH.

 

[Portofino]

PF, if I may summarize your post, since you are talking to someone who is used to a trawler e/r:
In all Itamas, bar none, the e/r access is as shi!!y as in any other planing boat, period.

Let me put it this way:
For any given size, in a scale where 0 is totally unacceptable and 10 is perfect, e/r accessibility in most trawlers is anywhere between 8 and 10.
In planing boats (the good ones, mind!) it's somewhere between 2 and 3.
How relevant do you think it is, to someone who is used to a 8 or 9, if one of these boats is 2.8 and another is 2.4?

The Ops talking about a walk in door . You stated in post 23 # “ forget that with ANY sub-60' planing boat.”
Itama 46 has one ( for what ever reason and why for ? ) a walk in door from the marinaros cabin .On that boat a classic crew bed and a bog set up.
Its under 14 M btw , and 4.45 beam .
The second guest cabin is in the fwd 1/3 rd of the boat with the saloon etc .

As I said as the L increases the rear cabin morphs into more of a guest suite with either twins 48 or even a double bed 54 etc etc , thus loosing the plan blank fire wall / bulkhead of that fwd side to put a walk in door .
Remember when you stroll through that nice water tight door , undo all the latches you are presented with a pair of 15 L V8s anyhow , which you can get around btw .

Not suggesting he gets a I 46 for the walk through door .Just picking up on your broad brush statement.

 

[MapisM]

Just picking up on your broad brush statement.

Call it broad brush statement if you wish, but can you name any other f/b planing boat of similar size and vintage, aside from the ones I mentioned, with door access to e/r?
Regardless, even the P boats with the best e/r access can't hold a candle to the worst trawler, for any given size - as per my 0 to 10 scale example.

PS: it just popped to my mind that I would probably award the VZ18 as the planing flybridge boat with the best e/r access for her size, walk-in door included - even better than the SL62, no less. But she's actually a bit above the 60' limit I was previously considering...

 

[Portofino]

The accident you are referring to is related to Southern Comfort, a 22m Maiora much larger than the boats which we are debating.
IIRC, the fire started from a BBQ astern, which wasn't fully turned off before going to sleep.
The 4 souls onboard woke up only when the boat was already engulfed in flames, and tried to escape from the ceiling hatch of the bow cabin.
But only one lady managed to get out, while the others, probably already intoxicated, were unable to get out and remained trapped inside.
Very sad indeed, but I fail to see how this can affect anyone's boat choice, TBH.

I can ‘t believe i am the only one who has thought of escape routes on a boat .Be it from fire ? from a sleeping cabin or some sort of cock up , sods law accident in the ER .

Don’t get me wrong I am not some sort of Jason Bourne character who enters a room - sits with my back to a wall and immediately sights all the exits , weighs up all the fellas , looks for folks excessIve sweating ( sign of stress ) , looks at there baggage , shoes ( who could run fast ) jacket wearing in hot climates ( concealed weapons ) , staff competence - are they new just replaced etc ?

But I do look for alternative exits on mid cabin boats at boat shows …..thats all ,just that !

 

[Portofino]

Call it broad brush statement if you wish, but can you name any other f/b planing boat of similar size and vintage, aside from the ones I mentioned, with door access to e/r?
Regardless, even the P boats with the best e/r access can't hold a candle to the worst trawler, for any given size - as per my 0 to 10 scale example.

You already established that with your Norhaven comment .Nobody’s disagreeing .

Your post #22 “ That's the reason why I laugh at those who praise the e/r of Nordhavns and the likes: at any given size, making a decent e/r is MUCH easier with a trawler compared to a planing boat, for very obvious reasons.”

The obvious reason I understood to be the engines about the size as my ride on mower - Joke btw , it’s tiny in physical dims and Hp for a similar L fast P boat = hence the cathedral like space .I think the op kinda knows that btw , had that type of boat .

 

[prinex]

On my trawler the only engine was a Deutz F6L714 which was of course much smaller than a 800HP Man but still a decent size - the trawler was very "seaworthy" if you want, 15mt long, had a large bow cabin, steering station(raised, the thanks where under the steering stations), then a large kitchen with sofa and a bathroom. The rest of the boat was the engine room -probably 5 meter long - which dubbed as a workshop. And then a aft cabin where the steering gear was and storage.

When the kids where little they slept on the sofa which could be transformed in a bed, then when they where too big .... I got another boat. Btw in this video you can see the engine room door on the Sanlorenzo 57 (I doubt this is full height but still).

 

[Bouba]

On my trawler the only engine was a Deutz F6L714 which was of course much smaller than a 800HP Man but still a decent size - the trawler was very "seaworthy" if you want, 15mt long, had a large bow cabin, steering station(raised, the thanks where under the steering stations), then a large kitchen with sofa and a bathroom. The rest of the boat was the engine room -probably 5 meter long - which dubbed as a workshop. And then a aft cabin where the steering gear was and storage.

When the kids where little they slept on the sofa which could be transformed in a bed, then when they where too big .... I got another boat. Btw in this video you can see the engine room door on the Sanlorenzo 57 (I doubt this is full height but still).

I liked the ‘workshop’ but it didn’t look easy to get around those engines.

 

[jrudge]

The “ rubbish “ came this thread on this forum started by you if I am not mistaken?

Squadron 58 - 2004 - Saloon Floor Removal

Now YOU have raised the Spector of VP D12 s , there’s a guy on my jetty with D 12 s who's boat has not moved for 5 weeks with injector trouble .
Smoke , heavy smoke and a distinctive tapping / rattle / knocking as it’s missing one cylinder .They are throwing parts on it still unresolved.

Given a blank canvas why hop into Volvo Penta land ? Imho as I said the machinery side , it’s marque and access should figure higher up the wish list than the mid cabin .Every ones order on the wish list will vary of course we are not clones .Mid cabin ( this thread ) is on there but exactly how high up , what does it trump in this boat size range ?
A fellow forumite has witnessed a brief start up btw - it interrupted our conversation.
The poor guy( owner ) is pretty frustrated

And the thread says you don’t remove the furniture - so why let facts stand in the way of a forum post ?

the er has a ladder and you can service it etc without removing the floor. Next time you want to remove the injectors at sea do let me know.

is there anything you choose not to criticise other than an itama ? To say it is tiring is an understatement.

having found the very thread that contradicts you Re removing furniture you now move onto d12 engines. Previously it is ips and then next mid cabins will burn you to death

You have nil appreciation that boats are a compromise and different things give joy to others. Would I have a boat with no rails ? Never. Do I wish to do round the place at 40 knots. ? No. Everyone has a choice.

even back on topic mid cabins have pros and cons. No different to anything else in life.

 

[Portofino]

And the thread says you don’t remove the furniture - so why let facts stand in the way of a forum post ?

the er has a ladder and you can service it etc without removing the floor. Next time you want to remove the injectors at sea do let me know.

is there anything you choose not to criticise other than an itama ? To say it is tiring is an understatement.

having found the very thread that contradicts you Re removing furniture you now move onto d12 engines. Previously it is ips and then next mid cabins will burn you to death

You have nil appreciation that boats are a compromise and different things give joy to others. Would I have a boat with no rails ? Never. Do I wish to do round the place at 40 knots. ? No. Everyone has a choice.

even back on topic mid cabins have pros and cons. No different to anything else in life.

Yes but to make that choice one needs information to make more informed choices .
Of course every boat is a compromise , a compilation of a common list of requirements only the owner draws up .Thats a given .

I have always said and maintain try before you buy .Appreciate a lot sign the check at a show with the thing on its stand .
ER access is not just for annual servicing , it’s for checking all the other stuff , pumps , pipes , clips , wires , batts , chargers , tanks , senders and much more .
The ops initially inferences suggest ER access is up high on the wish list order if he had been silent I would have not raised this sq 58 issue .No point .
This threads about sleeping Vs water lapping in the fwd cabin , @ the 60 ft ish size there are mid cabins , SL 57 less money than a sq 58 or a bit larger and more money SL 62 which solves , ticks off those two ER access +mid cab - for the owner .
Some indeed ( not sure with theses SL s ? ) do indeed have a second exit in the mid cabin .Not all but worth knowing when hunting .Again information surfacing best surfacing before the trigger is pulled - agree ?Bow cabins have hatches at this size , so a slight advantage to factor in .

Objectivity is what’s needs not personal sensitivity to criticism which you seem to have exhibited.

MapishM s boat similar size to the sq 58 is powered by V 8 15 L MANs .The SL 57 is a V8 boat and a V 12 iirc ?
The Fairline Phantom 50 is D12 ok older and at 675 Hp or what ever but that’s about right for the 12 L inline 6 .Nice fit of engines to hull .The Sq 58 feels when you line up near competition under powered .No criticism = pure objectivity.

Getting picky here OP s not raised this as the plan is to do a lot of D speed if I understand his “ wish list “but nice and practical as it is the Sq 58 does cruise planning rather bow high , a high running angle .Again there’s no way that can be detected at the dock .
Needs too much tab .
Anyhow without too much Fred drift .
Can I draw readers to this quote from a naval “ Peters “ architect .
Nice to get the view from the other side of the table …..the guys designing them - Yes ? There perceptions of us , the punters ?
How many on here gave ever given this a passing thought ?

[Peters also advised inquiring about a preferred design’s origins. Was it designed in-house at the boatbuilding facility? Was it designed by a naval architect? What are his or her credentials?

“Some people might not care, but it will help you better understand the design,” he said. “With a car, we accept that all the engineering is done correctly, and we can choose our favorite based on appeal alone. With a boat, you should think about engineering and stability calculations, not just styling.”]

Whole article here below , looks well balanced btw .

The Best-Riding Center Console Boats for Rough Water

Enjoy your boating J ,

 

[Hurricane]

What a load of tripe
I'm out!!

 

[Portofino]

What a load of tripe
I'm out!!

Proves the architects point ^^^ “ Some people might not care, but it will help you better understand the design,”


Messenger shooting

 

[MapisM]

SL 57 less money than a sq 58 or a bit larger and more money SL 62 which solves , ticks off those two ER access +mid cab - for the owner.

Ahem. Sounds like you've never been onboard them, 'cause in both the master cabin is actually at the bow, and E/R access is through a cockpit hatch.
They did introduce the amidship master in SL62 Mk2, but she was never anywhere near as popular as Mk1.

 

[Portofino]

Ahem. Sounds like you've never been onboard them, 'cause in both the master cabin is actually at the bow, and E/R access is through a cockpit hatch.
They did introduce the amidship master in SL62 Mk2, but she was never anywhere near as popular as Mk1.

Only a 62 MK 2 .

 

[MapisM]

Only a 62 MK 2.

Well, where did you see an E/R access other than from the cockpit hatch+ladder, then?

 

[jrudge]

And now the sage proclaims a s58 rides now high. Have you actually been on one? I can speak as someone who has been on the boat for 5 weeks so far.

good luck op. Be mindful of who you listen to