Skippers responsibility/liability

[Ubergeekian]

The point being that if you take on the responsibility then you are the skipper whatever you want to call yourself (capatain, owner whatever).

Of course. And if nobody takes on that responsibility - alone - then nobody is the skipper. Please note that I am not denying for an instant that a boat can be worked with a skipper and defined chain of command, just that it doesn't have to be worked that way.

And that if you are the owner of a non coded yacht then you are responsible for the safety equipment on board, and therefor you are the skipper as no one else, whatever you call them can take that responsibility nor would want to take it anyway.

So a complete novice who buys a boat so he can go sailing with his Yachtmaster Ocean pal is the skipper?

If you borrow or charter a boat then one person on board will be the skipper in the eyes of the owner or charter company and this person will have to take responsibility as skipper.

I used to lend my boat to groups of my undergraduate students. How they chose to organise themselves never worried me in the least - I trusted the to do it sensibly.

Other owners, charter companies and so on may, of course, choose to be more formal about things.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Are you suggesting boats are run by committee?

No. I'm suggesting that they can be, which is a little different.

As previously stated, the authorities in the UK (MCA etc) and any at foreign ports, expect that there will be an 'owner' and/or skipper/captain responsible for the boat & crew.

Their expectations are interesting, but not really relevant. If it really mattered that someone was in charge, there would be regulations stating that and laying down the qualifications required

This applies to leisure boats & any run on commercial basis.
If you think otherwise & the **** hits the fan, you cannot absolve yourself of responsibility, simply because it was a friends' jolly with 'no-one' in charge.

Quite the contrary - I'm the one who thinks you can't evade responsibility by pointing at someone and saying "Don't blame me - he was the skipper." When several people - not necessarily everyone aboard - share the decision making, they also share the responsibility. And there's a lot less shouting.

 

[TheBoatman]

What I would do?

What is the Skippers responsibility/liability when an incident happens resulting loss of life/major injury to a person on his boat IF that person was not wearing a Life Jacket or a harness?

Ditto and if the Skipper had told them to put one on and they ignored his advice/instruction?

Doesn't the buck stop with the skipper/owner?

Under maritime law the skipper is responsible for the safe conduct of the vessel and its crew and if faced with a crew member that had refused an instruction/order from me I would enter that fact in the ships log. If he was subsequently lost I would at least have the log to produce in court ~ it may not do me any good, but I'm sure it wouldn't do me any harm either.

There are so many scenarios that in the end can only be tested in court!!!

Peter.

 

[Jamesuk]

I get crew to sign a disclaimer, A friend wrote one up who dabbled in Marine Law. I also give them a abit of paper that took quite abit of time to write up that goes through all the important aspects of sailing and safety that I checked with a friend at the RYA I give this to the guests they run through it and sign it, asking questions of course but incase anything happens I am covered. I also take out skipper liability insurance too.

To recap:

Safety briefing
Paper work
Disclaimer signed
Safety questions signed (any queries answered to the standard required)
Where to sail
food onboard
Usual checks
Lines slipped
Happy Holidays!

 

[Ubergeekian]

Under maritime law the skipper is responsible for the safe conduct of the vessel and its crew and if faced with a crew member that had refused an instruction/order from me I would enter that fact in the ships log. If he was subsequently lost I would at least have the log to produce in court ~ it may not do me any good, but I'm sure it wouldn't do me any harm either.

That claim requires evidence, you know.

What maritime law states that a skipper is necessary? Act, section and paragraph, please?

For what does maritime law state that the skipper is responsible? Act, section and paragraph, please.

How is "skipper" defined for that law / these laws? Act, section and paragraph, please.

I'll kick you off with Section 24, paragraph 1 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, which introduces Part II of the Act: Masters and Seamen

24 Application of this Part

(1) With the exceptions specified in subsection (2) below, this Part applies only to ships which are sea-going ships and masters and seamen employed in sea-going ships.

(2) Those exceptions are sections 43, 46 to 52, 54, 55, 58, 61 to 68 and 69.

Sections 46 and 47 say, in summary, that the Secretary of State may may regulations about manning levels, and exempt certain categories of vessel from these regulations.

So I'll then offer the MCA page on regulation for pleasure craft at
http://www.ukshipregister.co.uk/lrg...motorboating-2/mcga-sailing-regulations-2.htm

Manning
Provided it meets the following requirements a pleasure vessel which is less than 3000 GT has been exempted from the Merchant Shipping (Safe Manning, Hours of Work and Watchkeeping) Regulations 1997:

• Vessels of = 24 metres length and = 80 GT should comply with the manning requirements set out in Merchant Shipping Notice 1802 and Marine Guidance Note 156 for deck and engineering requirements respectively. Additionally, from 31st December 2005, those ratings required for the safe manning of the yacht will also need to comply with MGN 270.
• A vessel < 24 metres length or 80 GT need not comply with the Manning Regulations.

Please note that I am not disputing that responsibility exists for the state and conduct of a pleasure yacht. I am disputing the claim that that responsibility is necessarily vested in one person by virtue of a title for which no qualifications or experience are necessary.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I get crew to sign a disclaimer,

Disclaiming what, precisely?

 

[Jamesuk]

Disclaiming what, precisely?

Similar to that of a bareboat charter boat but just for the skipper.

 

[fireball]

That claim requires evidence, you know.

What maritime law states that a skipper is necessary? Act, section and paragraph, please?

For what does maritime law state that the skipper is responsible? Act, section and paragraph, please.

How is "skipper" defined for that law / these laws? Act, section and paragraph, please.

I'll kick you off with Section 24, paragraph 1 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, which introduces Part II of the Act: Masters and Seamen



Sections 46 and 47 say, in summary, that the Secretary of State may may regulations about manning levels, and exempt certain categories of vessel from these regulations.

So I'll then offer the MCA page on regulation for pleasure craft at
http://www.ukshipregister.co.uk/lrg...motorboating-2/mcga-sailing-regulations-2.htm



Please note that I am not disputing that responsibility exists for the state and conduct of a pleasure yacht. I am disputing the claim that that responsibility is necessarily vested in one person by virtue of a title for which no qualifications or experience are necessary.

I quite agree .... we tend not to have a 'skipper' aboard normally - we sail by consent - although I've been hammered on here before for saying this ..
In terms of experience - I'm the most experienced - it also means I tend to push things further than the others are comfortable with - so others will make the decisions on what sailset to use and/or where to go.
As to which one of us will be responsible if someone goes overboard? Well - that's down to the chump who ends up overboard (most likely to be me anyway!).

 

[Ubergeekian]

Similar to that of a bareboat charter boat but just for the skipper.

I doubt if it would protect you - or anyone else aboard - from a claim arising from negligence. All British gliding clubs used to get trial lesson punters to sign a disclaimer - generally known as the blood chit - until they checked and found that it really wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Neither the coroner, the grieving widow nor the judge would be impressed if a boat owner/skipper said "Yes, the rope snapped, the lifejacket didn;t inflate and the flares were out of date but hey, he signed a disclaimer." ...

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I doubt if it would protect you - or anyone else aboard - from a claim arising from negligence. All British gliding clubs used to get trial lesson punters to sign a disclaimer - generally known as the blood chit - until they checked and found that it really wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Neither the coroner, the grieving widow nor the judge would be impressed if a boat owner/skipper said "Yes, the rope snapped, the lifejacket didn;t inflate and the flares were out of date but hey, he signed a disclaimer." ...

No disclaimer can avoid the third party suing for negligence or failure of due care; any that tries to or appears to try to will be struck down by a judge, should it come to it. So said the course I once attended on liability, run by corporate solicitors. Good disclaimers make clear what a product IS good for, and what its short-comings are, so that a punter can't say they weren't told. What it can't do is give a blanket statement saying "anything that happens on here is at my own risk"; that really isn't worth the paper it is written on.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I quite agree .... we tend not to have a 'skipper' aboard normally - we sail by consent - although I've been hammered on here before for saying this ..
In terms of experience - I'm the most experienced - it also means I tend to push things further than the others are comfortable with - so others will make the decisions on what sailset to use and/or where to go.

I see it as a matter of all pitching in with whatever skills they have. If I'm the best aboard at doing navigation, I'll do the navigation. If there are two of us who could do it, we'll share as we want to. If there is someone aboard who really likes cooking I'll let them get on with it. These are the minor decisions. The bigs ones, like "WHat time shall we leave?" or "Shall we press on overnight?" are always a matter for consensus.

Here's an example. A couple of years ago I went to the Isle of Man. With me were two friends, one of whom hadn't sailed for a bit but had done much more than me in his time, and the other of whom was fairly inexperienced. As we reached the point of Ayr, heading for Peel, the wind backed to the southwest. So I said "OK folks, here's the deal. We can still go to Peel. It's a pretty place and we can lie afloat - however, it'll take a few hours beating to windward to get there. Or we can get to Ramsey in a reach in an hour or so, but we have to dry out and it's a bit of a dump. What do you want to do?"

So we had a bit of a discussion and decided to go to Ramsey - the inexperienced person really didn;t fancy a bumpy beat to windward and those of us who would have enjoyed it knew we could always take a bus to Peel. Once that Big Decision had been made I set about the fiddly detail of contacting Ramsey harbour and my experienced colleague et about the fiddly detail of getting us there.

Nobody in charge? No - everybody in charge.

 

[ianj99]

Not safe to leave the house these days.

I loathe the ambulance chasers, and blame & compensation culture that has sprung up over the last few years in Blighty.

The root cause is H&S gone mad where someone must be held to account, rather than an accident being just that.

If the person in charge was not reckless then there should be no liability.

Ian

 

[fireball]

If the person in charge was not reckless then there should be no liability.

Ah - but what constitues reckless?
Not having LJ's Harnesses and LifeLines onboard?
Not instructing the crew to use them?
Not ensuring the crew has clipped on?
Not maintaining the jackstays?
Not ensuring the MOB kit works?

Yes - accidents happen, but sometimes they can happen because someone else has taken shortcuts or just not bothered...
I hate ambulance chasers as well - but equally I'd be pretty pissed off if I had an accident on someone elses boat due to their lack of maintenance.

 

[ianj99]

Ah - but what constitues reckless?
Not having LJ's Harnesses and LifeLines onboard?
Not instructing the crew to use them?
Not ensuring the crew has clipped on?
Not maintaining the jackstays?
Not ensuring the MOB kit works?

Yes - accidents happen, but sometimes they can happen because someone else has taken shortcuts or just not bothered...
I hate ambulance chasers as well - but equally I'd be pretty pissed off if I had an accident on someone elses boat due to their lack of maintenance.

There is no easy to that question and sadly, no quick fix to prevent the reckless from endangering themselves and others.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Are you suggesting boats are run by committee?

Many years ago I spent a weekend on a newly acquired yacht with the Owner (A Yachtmaster Instructor), another person with an Instructor ticket , and two others like me 'mere' Yachtmaster ticket holders. We all knew each other quite well and were therefore sharing out decision making and leadership in quite a relaxed way until when we realised we were about to run into an unlit obstacle in the pitch dark (a longer story), and the owner called, in no uncertain terms for full astern. He was the skipper after all though no-one could have told until that moment.

 

[marklucas]

Real life

OK this is a reported conversation, but ...

Whilst on an Instructor assessment week we discussed this point.

The Examiner said that he had once instructed a course, where one student was a barrister.

He simply said that if, in front of the rest of the crew, you had provided an appropriate safety briefing (and of course all your safety kit was in code etc.) then no court in the country would convict you of negligence (and thereby coroner - but just make a note in your log!).

 

[Ubergeekian]

Many years ago I spent a weekend on a newly acquired yacht with the Owner (A Yachtmaster Instructor), another person with an Instructor ticket , and two others like me 'mere' Yachtmaster ticket holders. We all knew each other quite well and were therefore sharing out decision making and leadership in quite a relaxed way until when we realised we were about to run into an unlit obstacle in the pitch dark (a longer story), and the owner called, in no uncertain terms for full astern. He was the skipper after all though no-one could have told until that moment.

Perhaps it shows that "owner" outranks "skipper", no matter whether the latter is am individual or a committee.

 

[marklucas]

No

The skipper always outranks the owner.

This was a major re-write of SOLAS and law after several incidents when time to next port rather than safety caused several disasters (apologies don't have links to hand).

I have skippered on yachts where the owner is present and never had a problem with this.

There can only ever be one skipper - it just needs to be clear from the start otherwise you are inviting a disaster.

 

[fireball]

The skipper always outranks the owner.

This was a major re-write of SOLAS and law after several incidents when time to next port rather than safety caused several disasters (apologies don't have links to hand).

I have skippered on yachts where the owner is present and never had a problem with this.

There can only ever be one skipper - it just needs to be clear from the start otherwise you are inviting a disaster.

Hmm. Ok I'll agree there can only be a max of one skipper. But I'd counter with the idea that, for the most* there doesn't have to be a skipper.

I say for the most as I believe the majority of trips are short day sails where the most challenging decision is when to open the beer! If it is long term friends and or family then I'd say there doesn't need to be a skipper. There only becomes a skipper when an emergency occurs and then it could well be the person who reacts first who can coordinate the efforts required.

 

[Norman_E]

I don't know about skipper's liability if a life jacket is not worn, but I think he would have a liability if he had not provided life jackets and briefed the crew about them.

On my boat I brief the crew on how to wear them and when to wear them. As I sail in Turkey where it is usually hot, and most of the time you neither want or need one, my briefing is that life jackets are to be worn on the following occasions, with crutch straps properly adjusted.
1) When using the tender.
2) If we sail at night.
3) when going on deck forward of the cockpit, when the harness safety lines must also be used, attached to jack stays or strong points. (the only exception to this is entering or leaving harbour when attaching or removing fenders in calm conditions)
4) At any time the crew member feels safer in one. (their choice)
5) At any time I tell them to wear one.