sailorman
Well-Known Member
I suppose she was as she was swamped twice.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-22878365
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-22878365
Sinking death trawler Sarah Jayne 'overloaded'
- Thread starter sailorman
- Start date
Vega1447
Well-Known Member
The skipper's epitaph should include
A brave man who died making a living on the sea...
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
Yes that's very appropriate. He was the most respected skipper in Exmouth who died as a result of a tragic accident. Most certainly not a risk taker.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
I wonder how easy it is to gauge the 3 tonne overload claimed in the article. Perhaps filling up the hold is an estimate and its easy to overfill. There was a documentary years ago about the crab fishing boats that are featured in the current TV series "Deadliest Catch". Some of the vessels rolled over and sink and it came down to overloading: the hold was full of live crab to the brim and the cages were all stacked up tall on the stern, I am not sure of the details. Anyway, the point was that the fishermen didn't really know that they were overloaded.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Thats my take on it, how would they know apart from experience. Also how do you fish with all hatches closed off. All factual as the maib report would be but this was an everyday fishing trip that went wrong
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
Yes that occurred to me as well. It seems a strange claim to make as the boat sank with its hatches open and to my certain knowledge no one dived on the wreck for the best part of 2 weeks, and then it was a friend of mine who organised Jeffs body recovery. So how can anyone months later know what weight of fish was in the holds? Assumptions, almost always inaccurate and best not published.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
An overload even if accurate, probably about 7% of the gross weight, is hardly a reckless overload just a small mistake. Media frenzy.
Of the errors they highlighted to try and make the poor chap look reckless, the epirp and the liferaft, they would have made no difference.
And they highlighted lifejackets again. As he went into the cabin a lifejacket would have reduced his chances. The other 2, without lifejackets, survived.
Lesson to us all about checking our safety kit though, because it may have been useful in slightly different circumstances.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
The Plimsoll lines will tell you if you're overloaded. Granted if there's a sea running you won't be able to tell, but once you're in port it's easy to check how you sit on your marks with a full hold and then in future just work off that experience.
prv
Well-Known Member
Seajet
...
I don't think so ?
Even on yachts people I know keep painting the waterline higher as the amount of junk on board increases.
Headlines like ' Sinking Death trawler ' hardly give a positive image.
Sounds like maybe the barostatic release on the liferaft couldn't work if the boat rolled ?
It also sounds like the skipper did everything right for his crew.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Due respect to the dead man, and all others whose serious business means they're not at sea just for fun...
...but this report seems strongly suggestive of terrible slackness on important safety issues - even though I recognise that observance of these wouldn't necessarily have saved the departed.
Considering the substantial initial cost of a liferaft, it's hard to believe any professional skipper fits one just to meet safety rules...but what's the point, if it's not free to operate when needed?
The emergency beacon didn't work...but surely fully-functioning gear like this is even more vital aboard all-weather/all-season commercial vessels, than for fair-weather yachts?
And no lifejackets, not even worn by crew on deck, as the vessel sinks? What is the psychology behind workers in demanding & dangerous professions, omitting such basic self-defences? It's such a familiar story, it begins to seem inevitable.
And..."The trawler had about 20 tonnes of fish on board when it was recommended for 17". It seems odd for a skipper with decades of RNLI experience of accidents & incidents at sea, somehow to regard his own vessel as not subject to the risk of such over-burdening.
I've often had a sense that as an amateur of negligible experience, I'm routinely, deservedly condescended to by salty old professionals...but I wouldn't swap my safety-sense for theirs, whatever pride or respect it might notionally earn me.
Very sad though.
...but this report seems strongly suggestive of terrible slackness on important safety issues - even though I recognise that observance of these wouldn't necessarily have saved the departed.
Considering the substantial initial cost of a liferaft, it's hard to believe any professional skipper fits one just to meet safety rules...but what's the point, if it's not free to operate when needed?
The emergency beacon didn't work...but surely fully-functioning gear like this is even more vital aboard all-weather/all-season commercial vessels, than for fair-weather yachts?
And no lifejackets, not even worn by crew on deck, as the vessel sinks? What is the psychology behind workers in demanding & dangerous professions, omitting such basic self-defences? It's such a familiar story, it begins to seem inevitable.
And..."The trawler had about 20 tonnes of fish on board when it was recommended for 17". It seems odd for a skipper with decades of RNLI experience of accidents & incidents at sea, somehow to regard his own vessel as not subject to the risk of such over-burdening.
I've often had a sense that as an amateur of negligible experience, I'm routinely, deservedly condescended to by salty old professionals...but I wouldn't swap my safety-sense for theirs, whatever pride or respect it might notionally earn me.
Very sad though.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
If its operating commercially it should be coded. If its been coded then it should have a load line.
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
Due respect to the dead man, and all others whose serious business means they're not at sea just for fun...
...but this report seems strongly suggestive of terrible slackness on important safety issues - even though I recognise that observance of these wouldn't necessarily have saved the departed.
Considering the substantial initial cost of a liferaft, it's hard to believe any professional skipper fits one just to meet safety rules...but what's the point, if it's not free to operate when needed?
The emergency beacon didn't work...but surely fully-functioning gear like this is even more vital aboard all-weather/all-season commercial vessels, than for fair-weather yachts?
And no lifejackets, not even worn by crew on deck, as the vessel sinks? What is the psychology behind workers in demanding & dangerous professions, omitting such basic self-defences? It's such a familiar story, it begins to seem inevitable.
And..."The trawler had about 20 tonnes of fish on board when it was recommended for 17". It seems odd for a skipper with decades of RNLI experience of accidents & incidents at sea, somehow to regard his own vessel as not subject to the risk of such over-burdening.
I've often had a sense that as an amateur of negligible experience, I'm routinely, deservedly condescended to by salty old professionals...but I wouldn't swap my safety-sense for theirs, whatever pride or respect it might notionally earn me.
Very sad though.
Ok so you know better than Jeff Ingram, someone who spent his whole life at sea both as a professional skipper and RNLI crewman? Words fail me!
prv
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. It was a genuine question, just that I don't remember noticing load lines on the typical day potting boats or trawlers. But I guess I'm usually seeing them either from a distance or from a quayside above, where it's hard to see any marks on the hull.
Pete
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
http://www.flickr.com/photos/75103060@N00/8739401500/in/pool-922920@N24/lightbox/
In this collection of photos of fishing boats, not one has a plimsole/load line. Its not something that I have noticed on commercial fishing boat hulls. I think you may be wrong Woodlouse, perhaps fishing boats don't come under the Merchant Shipping Act, where the requirement for the plimsole lines resides, iirc.
In this collection of photos of fishing boats, not one has a plimsole/load line. Its not something that I have noticed on commercial fishing boat hulls. I think you may be wrong Woodlouse, perhaps fishing boats don't come under the Merchant Shipping Act, where the requirement for the plimsole lines resides, iirc.
Seajet
...
Maybe, in the 21st Century, there ought to be Plimsoll Lines ( and a way of observing them ) on all smaller fishing and commercial boats, and yes it may not look trendy but yachts too ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Plimsoll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Plimsoll
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Thanks for highlighting that. Clearly one of the best of men.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
Yachts coded for charter should have a plimsoll line under current regulations. I find it hard to believe that under current legislation fishing boats are exempt when even a 12 meter survey boat I used to work on required one.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
That's the point isn't it, Longjohn? I admit very readily how little I know, so I err on the safe side. Meanwhile, lots of professionals die each year, apparently because they know too much to be bothered with costly, time-consuming safety issues.
Grave concern about nearing/exceeding load limits would prevent me doing what this gent appears to have regarded as an acceptable risk, doubtless proven to his own satisfaction by his not having capsized this vessel previously. But his tragic denouement doesn't make me feel that my own concern is just daft lubberliness - quite the opposite.
We ought to tread tactfully...but the fact seems to be, borrowing your words, that despite "his whole life at sea both as a professional skipper and RNLI crewman", long practice led him to a degree of disregard for safety systems on board, and load limits. Isn't that fair comment? Why do words fail you?
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Did have one, or was it just required but it wasn't on. I don't know, just curious because of the overloading stated in the news report. I didn't know that coded yachts had to have a plimsole line, learn something new everyday, I'll have to lookout at the new Bavaria's going into charter at Largs.