Singlehanded round the UK - which boat?

[EdWingfield]

'I normally averaged 6kts'

How do you manage that? I have a bigger boat and average 4kn. And that is by using engine when sailing speed falls below 4kn and I motor-sail to maintain 4kn.

 

[Daydream believer]

'I normally averaged 6kts'

How do you manage that? I have a bigger boat and average 4kn. And that is by using engine when sailing speed falls below 4kn and I motor-sail to maintain 4kn.

First of all I make sure that i use the tides & I am talking about trip time. That makes a big difference. Secondly the Hanse is a quick boat & i do have good laminate sails & spent a lot of time on rig trim etc. 6 Kts up wind through the water is quite doable & my son likes to remind me that he can easily get 6.5 Kts & nail it there
My log shows the times & a Hanse is very much a sailor's boat.

For instance, take a leg like Le Havre to Cherbourg, get the tide rightat barfleur & one can knock hours off a trip. get it wrong & take hours longer. Going the other way leave half hour before the tide changes & carry it all the way to Le Havre. 74 miles will take 12-13 hours quite comfortably

 

[Phil the Cowman]

In answer to this post and the earlier one re small boat sailors. I did it a few years ago in a little boat driven primarily by pragmatism! - there was an opportunity in how my life was happening and I had a boat, so why not just get on and do it? Like so many other things, if you wait for things to be perfect, it will never happen! That said, I did concentrate on fundamentals like replacing rigging and sails, spending money on what I thought was important like comprehensive charts. I made sure that my living conditions were as good as they could be ( eg watertight storage for clothes, bedding etc); I removed the bunk cushions as they get damp, and replaced them with an airbed. I ate well ( and in port drank well!). Not sure I agree with the shorter hops assertion; while I only did one leg of 100+ miles ( Grimsby to Lowestoft), there were quite a lot in the 60 - 80 range; eg Poole to Dartmouth,Padstow to Dale, Holyhead to Ardglass. I guess its a different mindset; it all takes as long as it takes; it does help to enjoy being at sea!
Fully endorse the tidal effect on passage time( if you're lucky enough to get it right!). Generally passage planned at 3 knots, but my first leg from Poole to Dartmouth took only 15 and a half hours as I caught a strong spring ebb; average over 5 knots - not bad for a 17 footer!
As has already been mentioned, the encounters with different people made the trip; from being willingly mugged with home baking in Eyemouth, to being given a lobster in Harwich, dealing with the sad results of decline in Grimsby, and just the general interest and enthusiasm I found; that was what made it most memorable.

 

[Sgeir]

In answer to this post and the earlier one re small boat sailors. I did it a few years ago in a little boat driven primarily by pragmatism! - there was an opportunity in how my life was happening and I had a boat, so why not just get on and do it? Like so many other things, if you wait for things to be perfect, it will never happen! That said, I did concentrate on fundamentals like replacing rigging and sails, spending money on what I thought was important like comprehensive charts. I made sure that my living conditions were as good as they could be ( eg watertight storage for clothes, bedding etc); I removed the bunk cushions as they get damp, and replaced them with an airbed. I ate well ( and in port drank well!). Not sure I agree with the shorter hops assertion; while I only did one leg of 100+ miles ( Grimsby to Lowestoft), there were quite a lot in the 60 - 80 range; eg Poole to Dartmouth,Padstow to Dale, Holyhead to Ardglass. I guess its a different mindset; it all takes as long as it takes; it does help to enjoy being at sea!
Fully endorse the tidal effect on passage time( if you're lucky enough to get it right!). Generally passage planned at 3 knots, but my first leg from Poole to Dartmouth took only 15 and a half hours as I caught a strong spring ebb; average over 5 knots - not bad for a 17 footer!
As has already been mentioned, the encounters with different people made the trip; from being willingly mugged with home baking in Eyemouth, to being given a lobster in Harwich, dealing with the sad results of decline in Grimsby, and just the general interest and enthusiasm I found; that was what made it most memorable.

Cracking post! And some great preparation advice.

:encouragement: :encouragement: :encouragement:

 

[jamie N]

...... I guess its a different mindset; it all takes as long as it takes; it does help to enjoy being at sea!

This I entirely agree with! I need a new prop for my Folkboat; the one that I want will cost £1400; the one I'm going to get is £240. This means that for one of my legs on the planned 'cruise' this summer will be extended from 40 hours to 50 hours; Scalloway to Torshavn. It takes what it takes, and within myself, I'm just not able to spend £1k extra in shortening what I enjoy doing, despite the frustration of knowing that (as an ex-racer), I could be faster.

 

[Neeves]

It is a contradiction:

That we enjoy sailing but that boat builders build yachts they claim are faster (than the previous model, and certainly that of the competitors) reducing the time we spend actually sailing,

 

[doug748]

It is a contradiction:

That we enjoy sailing but that boat builders build yachts they claim are faster (than the previous model, and certainly that of the competitors) reducing the time we spend actually sailing,

Indeed ( as my solicitor always says )

Some boats are so fast you can make up enough time to go out for a sail.

 

[Seven Spades]

Do you really want to all the way around?

I've been up to Orkney and back to Portsmouth via the east coast of Ireland (two handed). Cruising Scotland was by far the best bit.

Make sure you have a reliable engine, as to make it round you're essentially sailing a delivery trip as you are sailing to a deadline.

Boats like a Sadler 34, Maxi 1000, Westerly Storm 33, Starlight 35, Bavaria 34(from around 2000), Contest 36, Moody 346/376, or at risk of falling into the 'I'll recommend my boat' trap, a Sadler 32. Then spend the extra getting the kit you want/need and leave yourself enough left over to cover most eventualities and make the most of exploring where you are, hiring cars, meals out etc.

I woudl add a Sigma to this list. But my advice is to look at the size of the fuel and water tanks and possibly battery capacitity as you are going to be self relient for quite a bit of this journey and it is miserable if you run out of any of the above.

 

[Daydream believer]

This I entirely agree with! I need a new prop for my Folkboat; the one that I want will cost £1400; the one I'm going to get is £240. This means that for one of my legs on the planned 'cruise' this summer will be extended from 40 hours to 50 hours; Scalloway to Torshavn. It takes what it takes, and within myself, I'm just not able to spend £1k extra in shortening what I enjoy doing, despite the frustration of knowing that (as an ex-racer), I could be faster.

The thing about being faster is that it helps keeping up with tidal gates & it can be frustrating if you miss one.
In addition the shorter journey times helps a lot when, like me you waited until retirement to do it. If it had occurred to me what I could have achieved in my first Stella in my 20's I would have gone much further & thinking back I realise what I missed. With so much more energy one can get over the problems easier. However, experience does make up for a lot as well. But long journey times can be really exhausting & without the benefit of youth it can be dangerous.
weather forecasts in a round UK trip can be unreliable inspite of what people say & sailors will be in strange waters & not used to the vagaries of local conditions. So being able to get from A-B before weather closes in is a big plus.
I have spoken to a lot of round UK sailors & they all say that they motored 35% of the time. That means that a small boat with an outboard for auxiliary power is at a definite disadvantage. I had untold problems with my Stuart Turner P4MC in my Stella & lack of power in a chop is ddogy if entering a safe haven which may not be so safe at the entrance. So a decent engine ( in my opinion) is a must if you want a less stressful trip. Without one the canal is out.
But at the end of the day it is what one can afford & whilst it is nice to have a shiny yacht if you sail it like a muppet you will get nowhere slower than someone with a small old boat who uses his abilities to the full. It is the sense of achievement afterwards that matters.
As Chay Blythe said:-
It is no good laying in bed looking at your toes waiting for the angel Gabriel thinking " if only I had done that"

 

[jamie N]

I agree with the frustration of missing tides. When I last crossed the Pentland Firth coming from Orkney, I went too close to the 'BIG' currents, rather than standing off a bit. I was lucky to realise it fairly early on, and adjusted, but (hopefully) learnt a lesson. Fortunately, my engine unit's reliable now, should I need it, plus I've got an 'extra long shaft' Honda 2.3 on the back, which is rubbish still in a chop, but ideal in and around a small harbour, or marina.
Anxiety before a trip, helps me in planning I find!

 

[EdWingfield]

First of all I make sure that i use the tides & I am talking about trip time. That makes a big difference. Secondly the Hanse is a quick boat & i do have good laminate sails & spent a lot of time on rig trim etc. 6 Kts up wind through the water is quite doable & my son likes to remind me that he can easily get 6.5 Kts & nail it there
My log shows the times & a Hanse is very much a sailor's boat.

My VMG to windward is 3.1kn. I'm told that is awful for a plastic 33' cruiser. What is everyone else's?

 

[Daydream believer]

My VMG to windward is 3.1kn. I'm told that is awful for a plastic 33' cruiser. What is everyone else's?

What class/model of boat is it?

 

[Sandy]

My VMG to windward is 3.1kn. I'm told that is awful for a plastic 33' cruiser. What is everyone else's?

I sail a 33' Gib'sea and don't measure the VMG to windward as there are too many variables, distance, number of tacks, tide, wind strength and angle, single handed or with crew, and how dry I want to stay. I have a more general measure of distance divided by time over a season. This gives me a planning speed for passage making. Currently 5.50 kts, it will be interesting to see what the new sails do this year.

Perhaps this season I'll try a long passage and see what the average speed on a close hauled passage is?

 

[wotayottie]

I sold my last boat several years ago, but next year it's time to tick off a bucket list item and sail round the UK singlehanded - but which boat should I buy (I've a budget of up to £50K)?

• Long keel of fin? (I've mainly sailed fin-keelers)
• Bigger, to handle big seas and sail faster, or smaller for manoeuverability when anchoring, mooring, docking, etc. ?
• Wheel or tiller? (I've had problems with wheelpilots and you can take a spare tillerpilot, but I like the support a wheel gives in big seas)
• Self-tacking jib + Gennaker, or cutter rig, or conventional large furling Genoa?

Ideas based on experience, please

Had a friend / fellow club member who did two laps inc Cape Wrath and he used an Achilles 24 triple keel. He was in his 60s at the time.

 

[EdWingfield]

I'm in my late 60s. I was close to being rammed by another yacht off Cape Wrath. How about that?

 

[Daydream believer]

I'm in my late 60s. I was close to being rammed by another yacht off Cape Wrath. How about that?

Got to ask haven't we!!!!
An Achilles 24 ?????

 

[dunedin]

My VMG to windward is 3.1kn. I'm told that is awful for a plastic 33' cruiser. What is everyone else's?

Not bad in the real world.

To put some reality into these things, the manufacturers Polars for a Hanse 385 (which has a good long waterline length) suggests this can, at max, achieve 5.9 knots to Windward at 45degrees to the true wind in 10 knots breee.
This equates to a VMG of just under 4.2knots.
That will be very much best case - a new boat, minimum load (no cruising gear), new sails, flat water.
Hammer it fully in 20 knots with full sail in 27knots apparent in theory might just reach 5 knots, but more likely reefed and hitting waves long before that.

Lots of bar talk numbers, but mostly uncalibrated instruments and uncalibrated reality

 

[chriss999]

In answer to this post and the earlier one re small boat sailors. I did it a few years ago in a little boat driven primarily by pragmatism! - there was an opportunity in how my life was happening and I had a boat, so why not just get on and do it? Like so many other things, if you wait for things to be perfect, it will never happen! That said, I did concentrate on fundamentals like replacing rigging and sails, spending money on what I thought was important like comprehensive charts. I made sure that my living conditions were as good as they could be ( eg watertight storage for clothes, bedding etc); I removed the bunk cushions as they get damp, and replaced them with an airbed. I ate well ( and in port drank well!). Not sure I agree with the shorter hops assertion; while I only did one leg of 100+ miles ( Grimsby to Lowestoft), there were quite a lot in the 60 - 80 range; eg Poole to Dartmouth,Padstow to Dale, Holyhead to Ardglass. I guess its a different mindset; it all takes as long as it takes; it does help to enjoy being at sea!
Fully endorse the tidal effect on passage time( if you're lucky enough to get it right!). Generally passage planned at 3 knots, but my first leg from Poole to Dartmouth took only 15 and a half hours as I caught a strong spring ebb; average over 5 knots - not bad for a 17 footer!
As has already been mentioned, the encounters with different people made the trip; from being willingly mugged with home baking in Eyemouth, to being given a lobster in Harwich, dealing with the sad results of decline in Grimsby, and just the general interest and enthusiasm I found; that was what made it most memorable.

Phil,
Thank you for that advice.
I read your piece in PBO a few years ago & was inspired by what you did.
Mine is a 20 footer, & I plan to do the trip in a couple of years time to mark my 60th birthday.
Best just get on with it is excellent advice.
C

 

[Daydream believer]

Not bad in the real world.
To put some reality into these things, the manufacturers Polars for a Hanse 385 (which has a good long waterline length) suggests this can, at max, achieve 5.9 knots to Windward at 45degrees to the true wind in 10 knots breee.
This equates to a VMG of just under 4.2knots.
That will be very much best case - a new boat, minimum load (no cruising gear), new sails, flat water.
Hammer it fully in 20 knots with full sail in 27knots apparent in theory might just reach 5 knots, but more likely reefed and hitting waves long before that.
Lots of bar talk numbers, but mostly uncalibrated instruments and uncalibrated reality

Do not know if this extract for the polar for a 31 will come out Ok this was for a Dutch yacht Hanse 31
Reading along the top line, the VMG the 6.45 is in 12 kts.& 6.92 is in 20 Kts wind,
I might add that the angle is not good at 52 degrees actual but does show a fair turn of speed. It does not mean it cannot be bettered.
The boat will still get 6.5kts when 20 kts of wind & will point higher. . Look at the speeds further down the lists
The overall journey times also discount errors in any log. They tell the story at the end of the day..
With a furling code zero light wind speed is said to be very much improved, but at loss of pointing ability.

52;4.43;5.28;5.96;6.45;6.72;6.85;6.92
60;4.71;5.58;6.27;6.67;6.9;7.05;7.15
75;4.96;5.93;6.57;6.83;7.06;7.26;7.56
90;5.27;6.33;6.89;7.09;7.22;7.32;7.75
110;5.35;6.43;6.95;7.3;7.64;7.83;8.16
120;5.15;6.28;6.87;7.22;7.58;7.98;8.5
135;4.63;5.7;6.58;6.99;7.32;7.67;8.44
150;3.95;4.93;5.84;6.47;6.82;7.07;7.6

To back that up a bit more : here you can see my instruments the second from the right is the GPS showing 5.5Kts SOG the second from left showing speed through water 6.9 kts. If you want to check in reeds against the the picture time it will show you that tide in the black deep was 1.5kts south. ( N Forelnd in background) The r h instrument shows course 345 degrees ( actually there is a 10 deg error so it was more like 355 deg see centre compass))- against the tide . So the 2 match fairly close
The second picture taken at the same time ( one camera was not adjusted for summer time). by my son from a Hanse 445 shows that we are close hauled
So I think that is fair evidence that the boat will do 6.5 kts up wind ( Not hard on in this pic I agree)) 14 kts wind Left hand instrument)
Before anyone says anything - we were NOT motor sailing & it was a club cruise & we were debating how I could leave the 35 ft beneteau behind, hence the other hanse took pics as they passed me. They confirmed our 6.5 kts speed as well when they slowed down to chat
By the way I have ordered a new set of raymarine instruments !!!

 

[Neeves]

The speeds are going to vary considerably with the state of sea. Sailing flat water is, obviously, completely different to sailing with big swells with breaking seas on top. Today out on the Tasman with fairly previously settled weather good speeds could be achieved (well they would if the wind picked up) especially as the East Australian Current, southerly, can add 4 knots if you get into it. But add a few metres of swell, 3m seas and 20knots gusting 30 (on the nose) and you have a completely different scenario - and that slick boat speed will disappear, especially if she is light.

On a decent beam reach, reasonably flat water, 20/25 knots we can average 10 knots - but it is nowhere near the average for a 'cruise' which will be around 6 knots (and we plan on 5 knots).

The whole idea of 'cruising' takes on a different complexion if you sail from marina to marina with empty tanks to save weight. The idea of an inability to take a hot shower because the water carried would knock 0.5 knots off the boat speed is not our idea of fun. Our need to spend money (so anchored next to a village etc) is dictated by running out of fresh green vegetables and our need for fuel dictates the few times we would enter a marina. We would make a 2,000nm round trip down to SW Tasmania and might top up fuel at Eden and Strahan (neither of which are marinas), each way (not refill, but top up). We carry 200l of fuel, 2 x 20hp inboards, 400l of water + desal.

We simply avoid sailing to windward, its not worth it, 38', 7t cat - we wait till the winds are more favourable (though the seas can still be large). This then means we are usually self sufficient in fish

Everyone to their own

And I still have great admiration for anyone doing the UK circumnavigation (however they do it) - of which there are many more than I had imagined. A great example to the Lotus Eaters.

Jonathan