Shroud re-bedding?

[Luminescent]

Hi All,

Wondering if someone could point me in the right direction. of a Shroud deck fitting rebedding tutorial. (It would probably help if I knew the correct terminology of deck fitting name...).

I'm having a small problem with leaks. Fortunately not through the hull, but through the deck. I can find fairly decent tutorials for re-sealing/setting the windows but I can't find one for the shrouds. I'm not sure if something went wrong when the mast was stepped but... now the deck fittings are letting water through.

I'm guessing I'll need to get the rigger in to re-tension everything when I've done but in the mean time I'd like to get the fittings themselves secure and water tight.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The best technique I’ve found is to remove the fitting and clean up all surfaces. Then refit on a generous gloop of Sikaflex but DON’T tighten the fitting down too much. If necessary put the tips of matchsticks or some sort of spacer under the edge of the fitting to hold it off and not allow the Sikaflex to be squeezed out. Wait a day or two for the Sikaflex to go off and then finally tighten up the fitting. The Sikaflex has formed a squashable ‘gasket’ that seals everything.
You can either mask off the surround and then cut round the fitting to remove the excess Sikaflex when it’s gone off or clean up with Acetone or White Spirit while the Sikaflex is wet in the normal way.

 

[vyv_cox]

There is no single method as there is so much variation in design. Here is a page on lower and cap shroud chain plates on a Sadler 34. Many are similar to the caps. Sadler 34 lower and cap chainplates

 

[Crazy-Diamond]

I would suggest not to use Sikaflex , but a butyl rubber, either tape or the stuff in a tube. The problem with the sika is it is very hard to remove so once it has failed either you or a future owner will have a hard time removing it. If the access around the plates is easy maybe this is less of a problem, but on my boat it is hard, so I use butyl.

 

[Refueler]

Any chance to know what the boat is ? Maybe a picture or two of the fitting ?

Its all well and good people saying use this .. do that ... but without seeing the actual item - who knows what is correct ??

 

[Luminescent]

Any chance to know what the boat is ? Maybe a picture or two of the fitting ?

Its all well and good people saying use this .. do that ... but without seeing the actual item - who knows what is correct ??

It's a Javelin 30. I failed to get a picture the last time, but next time I'm down I'll be taking more pictures. I got everything else, but those fittings nada!

So far though it sounds like I'll use a combination of Butyl and John's technique, but I'll have to do more comparison between Sikaflex and the Butyl alternatives to see whether it's what I need. Anything to keep the water out!

 

[Tranona]

Either will work if properly applied, as will a Polysulphide. Personal choice depending on whether you prefer non setting or a setting/adhesive.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I think the term you are looking for is Chain plate. If you google that you should find some info. Butyl tape is a popular diy choice but I don't think many manufacturers use it.

 

[PeterWright]

For chainplates, you definitely need a non setting sealant as they will inevitably move a bit due to sailing loads. A setting adhesivd, once set, will crack creating a new leak.

The two common designs of chainplate are a bar which passes through a slot in the deck and is then bolted to some strong feature below decks (e.g. a bulkhead or hanging knee) usually the top of the slot is sealed with a small plate screwed to the deck, or a plate bolted through the deck to a bracket below decks which is in thrn bolted to a strong feature below decks. The screws holding down the sealing plate on the first type contribute nothing to the structure of the fig they'fe lurely for keeling water out.

Peter.

 

[Luminescent]

You're quite right Buck, it is the Chain Plate and I am very likely to do that myself then. I've watched videos of people trying to get off the other mysterious adhesives. Looks like great fun!

I'm not sure which design I have at present but will check. The advise to use non-setting is greatly appreciated.

 

[doug748]

I think this is the boat, and the general arrangement :



Photos courtesy of Yachtsnet: Javelin 30 archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

I might be tempted to have a larger flange (substantial round washer) welded to the base of the deck fitting, similar to the wooden deck example. Maybe depends how much cash you have and if you will be keeping the boat long term.
I have found this works very well, Butyl, if you prefer to use a gun:

Arbomast BR - Sealant

Satisfyingly sticky but can be messy to use.

.

 

[AlwaysThere]

You're quite right Buck, it is the Chain Plate and I am very likely to do that myself then. I've watched videos of people trying to get off the other mysterious adhesives. Looks like great fun!

I'm not sure which design I have at present but will check. The advise to use non-setting is greatly appreciated.

Hi Luminescent, I have the same with my newly acquired Javelin 30 'Aquaholic' which I fell in love with.

What did you opt for?.

Tim

 

[Luminescent]

We've chosen to use Butyl tape. I've been watching additional tutorials. Butyl is much more forgiving and if it fails, a bit of heat and possibly some extra pressure and it'll re-seal itself unlike Sikaflex and other curing sealants.

We still haven't applied it yet, doing that over the next few days.

The advantage of curing sealants is that when done in the right environment is that they can be quicker to apply (butyl is fairly quick to apply but needs a few extra days of oversight for tightening and trimming excess that Sikaflex does not need). It really depends on what your priorities are.

Check in again in about a week and hopefully I can let you know how it went!

Also... awesome to meet another Javelin owner!

 

[AlwaysThere]

Will do. Looking forward to hearing how you get on. My list of jobs keeps growing. You’re the only other owner I’ve come across. Maybe we should start an owners club

 

[Luminescent]

Soooo... this is not going well. Not at all.

Whoever did the windows last decided to Sikaflex e v e r y t h i n g. I kid you not, we have barely managed to remove one window after two days of scraping and hammering. It took ages to clean the outer frame, including using a stanley knife / paint scrapers and sanding paper. The windows appear to be fastened together with flat head screws, into a kind of 'threaded rivet' that has a rounded surface the otherside just to make it extra hard to get back out (the Sikaflex could have had something to with it...).

When trying to take the actual window out, the inner screws are also sikaflexed and cannot be loosened. The view from the yard is that they need to be drilled out, which means I'm going to need to find new screws. (If anyone happens to know what they might be called, that might help me find replacements, I keep hearing something about a fish plate?, it's the screws that connect the two halves together)

At this point I am tempted to ask the yard to do the removals and disassembly. Allowing us to focus on the cleaning and re-bedding with a material that's much easier to maintain.

Unfortunately our progress has been stumped in part due to weather but also availability, and of course my newness hasn't helped. As spring starts to wane and summer starts to come through I expect it will become easier to do what we need to do.

I feel your pain on having a growing list of jobs to do. Due to Coronavirus we have an epic amount of work to do. All of the surfaces are going to have be pulled out and the boat will have to be scrubbed inside and out, new treadmaster, new inner linings. But before that I need to stop the minor but numerous deck leaks.

We're also looking at purchasing a metric tonne (exaggerating somewhat) of silica beads as a way to keep moisture levels as low as they can be (and for a boat in the water, that's going to be some good going...)

--
Re Owner's Club, I'm up for it .

 

[Luminescent]

On a different matter on deck, it looks like there are no drainage holes on the sides, it's just a solid rail all round which means a lot of water is basically trapped on deck. Does anyone have any recommendations? I suspect I'm going to have to cut through the outer wooden railing and part of the 'lip' to create some kind of outlet in three places to allow water to quickly remove itself.


If that's the way forward does anyone have any tips on how to do that?

 

[Tranona]

Expect when afloat it was intended that water would run aft following the slope of the deck and then through the gap at the end of the rail at the transom. If scuppers have not been made in the toerails in the last 50 odd years this suggests they are not needed. If you do feel the need to cut scuppers then drill holes at either end and cut out the wood in between. Probably 10cm long and 12-15mm deep.

 

[vyv_cox]

Soooo... this is not going well. Not at all.

Whoever did the windows last decided to Sikaflex e v e r y t h i n g. I kid you not, we have barely managed to remove one window after two days of scraping and hammering. It took ages to clean the outer frame, including using a stanley knife / paint scrapers and sanding paper. The windows appear to be fastened together with flat head screws, into a kind of 'threaded rivet' that has a rounded surface the otherside just to make it extra hard to get back out (the Sikaflex could have had something to with it...).

When trying to take the actual window out, the inner screws are also sikaflexed and cannot be loosened. The view from the yard is that they need to be drilled out, which means I'm going to need to find new screws. (If anyone happens to know what they might be called, that might help me find replacements, I keep hearing something about a fish plate?, it's the screws that connect the two halves together)

At this point I am tempted to ask the yard to do the removals and disassembly. Allowing us to focus on the cleaning and re-bedding with a material that's much easier to maintain.

Unfortunately our progress has been stumped in part due to weather but also availability, and of course my newness hasn't helped. As spring starts to wane and summer starts to come through I expect it will become easier to do what we need to do.

I feel your pain on having a growing list of jobs to do. Due to Coronavirus we have an epic amount of work to do. All of the surfaces are going to have be pulled out and the boat will have to be scrubbed inside and out, new treadmaster, new inner linings. But before that I need to stop the minor but numerous deck leaks.

We're also looking at purchasing a metric tonne (exaggerating somewhat) of silica beads as a way to keep moisture levels as low as they can be (and for a boat in the water, that's going to be some good going...)

--
Re Owner's Club, I'm up for it .

This does not sound like Sikaflex. It sounds like my windows have the same construction as yours. I have resealed and rebedded them several times, always with Sikaflex 291. Never had your problems.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Some of these Poly Adhesive sealants set like concrete. Chemical removal only works with the smallest amount of sealant once its already cured. I'm looking at the same challenge on mine in the next few weeks. Plan to do exactly the same as you but have been given 3 pieces of advice. Firstly, heat up the frame and the screws with a heat gun if necessary to break the seal. Secondly, use a Dremel and attachment to remove Sikaflex from the frame if its set solid. Lastly, consider replacing aluminium frames with bonded rubber seals if all else fails. I have more info on all if this helps.

Where are you berthed?.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Some of these Poly Adhesive sealants set like concrete. Chemical removal only works with the smallest amount of sealant once its already cured. I'm looking at the same challenge on mine in the next few weeks. Plan to do exactly the same as you but have been given 3 pieces of advice. Firstly, heat up the frame and the screws with a heat gun if necessary to break the seal. Secondly, use a Dremel and attachment to remove Sikaflex from the frame if its set solid. Lastly, consider replacing aluminium frames with bonded rubber seals if all else fails. I have more info on all if this helps.

I’ve never known Sika to set solid. Mind has always set to a firm flexible state. How are you so sure it’s Sikaflex?