Should we be alarmed? Proposed removal 350 navigational buoys USA North East.

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harry potter

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USA coast guards proposal to remove 350 navigational buoys in the NE on the grounds that electronic navigational aids are ubiquitous and makes buoys superfluous , although the proposal being vigorously opposed, is worrying. Apart from American buoys being back to front, I can't imagine negotiating the Solent or the Brittany Coast without these visual aids, particularly in fog.
 
harry potter said:
USA coast guards proposal to remove 350 navigational buoys in the NE on the grounds that electronic navigational aids are ubiquitous and makes buoys superfluous , although the proposal being vigorously opposed, is worrying. Apart from American buoys being back to front, I can't imagine negotiating the Solent or the Brittany Coast without these visual aids, particularly in fog.
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In some way the USA coast guard are correct, but if the satellites are jammed they will have serious problems.

I do like them around the western Solent and approaches as the Shingles do move around and presently the buoys are also moved. Saves me constantly looking at a chart plotter.
 
harry potter said:
USA coast guards proposal to remove 350 navigational buoys in the NE on the grounds that electronic navigational aids are ubiquitous and makes buoys superfluous , although the proposal being vigorously opposed, is worrying. Apart from American buoys being back to front, I can't imagine negotiating the Solent or the Brittany Coast without these visual aids, particularly in fog.
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Navigation buoys; something to help other people thus probably considered too woke now. 🙄

Just let the yanks be yanks and leave them to their own demise.
 
Removing navigation marks is nothing new, it's being going on for a long, long time in the UK. Over the decades I have experienced the removal of lights and buoys in Scotland. I have also seen an overall improvement in navigation buoys and perches in particular.

Most navigation marks are there for commercial shipping which pay for them through their light dues which few leisure sailors pay. I think it is entirely reasonable for navigation marks to be removed when other technology exists and has become common.
 
RunAgroundHard said:
…..

Most navigation marks are there for commercial shipping which pay for them through their light dues which few leisure sailors pay…..
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That’s a key point. In the UK fishing boats as small as 10m need to pay for navigation marks but most private boat owners don’t pay a penny (if your boat is medium sized, equivalent to 20 registered tons you should pay £177 a year, but it seems few know that).
Large ships with dual ECDIS probably don’t use the marks for navigation either (provided GPS not jammed).
So we are generally not in a good place to complain about removal of navigation buoys, unless we are prepared to put a lot of money behind our words.
 
There is probably a better case for keeping at least some buoys, than there is for most lighthouses. Buoys can be moved as shoals move. It could be argued that lighthouses and other shore based lights are anachronisms.
 
Ireland have AIS for theirs and honestly it would have made very little difference to us if the buoys weren’t there as the AIS version is just as good. Better really, as they can be moved more easily and have no chance of bashing the bows in!
 
ylop said:
Is that not a contradiction in terms?
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Not so, we came around from Salcombe on a delivery trip in May with fog all along the Dorset coast, only clearing once we were past Hurst Castle. We had a hand held plotter (and paper charts) but it was very reassuring to see the physical channel markers loom out of the fog as we motored into the western Solent. In at least some areas I would regard physical navigation buoys as critical assets. Similar on parts of the East Coast.
 
Most do have electronic aids though, that’s the point. We can’t provide expensive buoyage just for a few holdouts who refuse to modernise. Especially when those paying for said buoyage don’t use them at all.
 
lustyd said:
Most do have electronic aids though, that’s the point. We can’t provide expensive buoyage just for a few holdouts who refuse to modernise. Especially when those paying for said buoyage don’t use them at all.
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Whilst I am sympathetic to that view to a point - in the last couple of years in particular gps’ have shown themselves to being particularly susceptible to bad actors and prone to being jammed/spoofed
 
Minerva said:
Whilst I am sympathetic to that view to a point - in the last couple of years in particular gps’ have shown themselves to being particularly susceptible to bad actors and prone to being jammed/spoofed
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In conflict areas, sure.
Spoofing is a solved problem and message signing on the non-military side will stop it overnight. If it ever actually becomes a problem this will be a flick of a switch on their side and a firmware on ours.
Jamming is very limited in range for normal equipment and aside from military use is irrelevant to yachts as anything strong enough to affect us offshore would take minutes to find. If you’re near a warship using it in anger, leave.
 
I think the view is right that the majority of those afloat use some form of GPS.

Even in the pre GPS days using buoyage was only part of the position fixing and monitoring process - they can move position just as GPS can hiccup. Or you simply don't see them.

To lose offshore or coastal buoyage would not directly affect many but for me the relief of finding a buoy where you expected is a satisfying part of passage making confirming everything is on track.

One of my favourite day sails is out to the Sarn Badrig cardinal mark - chiming its bell for those really near it.

Pilotage buoys are another matter - plenty of places where they are more useful than the plotter.
 
Supertramp said:
Pilotage buoys are another matter - plenty of places where they are more useful than the plotter.
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Agree strongly. Ok, I mostly only daysail, but I am surrounded by LPG and other petrochemical tankers and terminals, Irish ferries and port workboats. Some days I don’t switch the plotter on, but I always watch the pilotage buoys to make sure I am just out of the main channel
 
If someone said to me "You've headlights on your car, why do we need cat's eyes or streetlights? People can carry torches if they're walking at night. Why should the tax payer have to fork out because of the few holdouts who refuse to wear a headtorch?", I'd not have to think for long about how smart a person that is.
The buoy is there to help when other stuff mightn't work.
 
jamie N said:
If someone said to me "You've headlights on your car, why do we need cat's eyes or streetlights? People can carry torches if they're walking at night. Why should the tax payer have to fork out because of the few holdouts who refuse to wear a headtorch?", I'd not have to think for long about how smart a person that is.
The buoy is there to help when other stuff mightn't work.
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Completely agree, same with lighthouses approaching a landfall. It's the confirmation of the position the plotter says, which I find reassuring. Where years ago we used to head to one side of our destination and then knew which way to turn, now we head straight for the destination with complete faith in a black box.
The lighthouse or daymark give the reassurance and confirmation we need as we approach solid matter.
 
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