Should I Beta or Volvo ?

[Slowtack]

FWIW I re-engined this last winter from VP2003 to D1-30. I installed myself and the dealer included an inspection for the warranty.
So far so good..............

 

[Neeves]

To me, everything else being equal, I'd go the Volvo route with the bigger alternator. I believe that Parkinson's Marine Law that - 'power requirement grow to just exceed the ability to produce that power' is valid and the rate of increased power requirements is growing (as we carry iPads, cameras, phones - in addition to all the instrumentation). Being able to recharge quickly is an asset our of proportion to any likely differences in cost.

Of course if you live frugally, oil lamps, packs or cards, chess and scrabble - then you have no children and power is less of an issue.

It is 'easy' to change an engine (you just need patience and a little bit of skill) - as long as you can simply define how you are actually going to remove one engine and instal the new one, their weight and the tiny space within which you need to work is a major impediment - and a service agent will have this down to a fine art.

I'm not minimising the work needed to instal - just maximising the effort needed to move a very heavy lump of steel.

Jonathan

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I have no knowledge of either engine but I would go for one without an electronic control box if possible. Saw a chap trying to start a diesel van this week. Bled satisfactorily but wouldn't go. Mechanic said it's either this electronic box, the cheaper one or that which costs more than the van is worth! If the electronic control box fails at sea through penetration of salt water there is nothing you can do apart from sail or call the lifeboat, if you don't carry a spare.

 

[Ceirwan]

To me, everything else being equal, I'd go the Volvo route with the bigger alternator. I believe that Parkinson's Marine Law that - 'power requirement grow to just exceed the ability to produce that power' is valid and the rate of increased power requirements is growing (as we carry iPads, cameras, phones - in addition to all the instrumentation). Being able to recharge quickly is an asset our of proportion to any likely differences in cost.

Jonathan

In all likelihood a relatively modest alternator of 60-70amps will be able to supply current at a greater rate than the batteries can accept unless the OP has a particularly large battery bank, or is using some chemistry like Lithium.

 

[Neeves]

I have no knowledge of either engine but I would go for one without an electronic control box if possible. Saw a chap trying to start a diesel van this week. Bled satisfactorily but wouldn't go. Mechanic said it's either this electronic box, the cheaper one or that which costs more than the van is worth! If the electronic control box fails at sea through penetration of salt water there is nothing you can do apart from sail or call the lifeboat, if you don't carry a spare.

You can start a marine diesel engine of the sophistication of the sort we all use by shorting out the control box, electronic or not. All you need it a screw driver and know which terminals to short. Everyone should know how to do it - its easy, a few seconds, and any diesel mechanic can tell you how to do it. To call our a lifeboat is simply daft and incompetence. You also need to stop manually - but that is equally easy.

 

[Neeves]

In all likelihood a relatively modest alternator of 60-70amps will be able to supply current at a greater rate than the batteries can accept unless the OP has a particularly large battery bank, or is using some chemistry like Lithium.

Its becoming habitual that I answer and then delete my post

I can assure you that charging a 400 amp house battery bank with 2 x 60 amp alternators takes a long time. A 120 amp alternator would be a boon. From memory you need to run the older engines quite fast to get the 60 amps but the new Volvos s]charge at maximum amps at much lower revs.

 

[Tranona]

Its becoming habitual that I answer and then delete my post

I can assure you that charging a 400 amp house battery bank with 2 x 60 amp alternators takes a long time. A 120 amp alternator would be a boon. From memory you need to run the older engines quite fast to get the 60 amps but the new Volvos s]charge at maximum amps at much lower revs.

The reality is that for many boats fitted with 20hp engines 115 amps alternator is way OTT. Most boats are used for coastal cruising and probably have less than 200AH battery banks and rarely run them down. Even my well specced 33' with a D1 30 only has 285AH house bank (but 2*95 for start and bow thruster).

Add in a bit of solar topping up the batteries during the week, or access to shorepower such boats invariably start near fully charged so the need for high output alternators is really not there.

Different of course if you have a different style of boating.

 

[Neeves]

Tranona,

But your D1/30 has a 120 amp alternator - surely a 30hp (auxiliary) engine and a bow thruster on a 33' yacht is OTT

It goes back to Parkinson's Law of Marine power - 'Power consumption increases to just exceed the ability to produce and store it.'

But I agree for day sailing, stopping overnight in marinas, shore power during the week then a small alternator is more than adequate.

My 2 elder granddaughter (and many 'house' guests) would want to argue with you (and me) - they expect to recharge everything and anything, anywhere - and iPads (and granddaughters) have not heard of economy yet. They also think its a right of birth to have a minimum of 2, generous, hot showers each day and if I want to encourage them to have sailing as part of their leisure activities over the next 40 years I try to accommodate them - but pointing out some of the realities. Fortunately they only stay for a weekend - but they have learnt the meaning of a Navy Shower.

Jonathan

 

[Kelpie]

Does the Beta 20 use the same aluminium heat exchanger as their smaller engines?
I enjoyed owning a Beta on my previous boat, no complaints whatsoever, but I did worry a little that the heat exchanger was perhaps not as robust as it could have been. It certainly ate through anodes at a rate of knots.

 

[Rafiki]

You can start a marine diesel engine of the sophistication of the sort we all use by shorting out the control box, electronic or not. All you need it a screw driver and know which terminals to short. Everyone should know how to do it - its easy, a few seconds, and any diesel mechanic can tell you how to do it. To call our a lifeboat is simply daft and incompetence. You also need to stop manually - but that is equally easy.

Maybe you would like to post how exactly you do this. Start with the Volvo D2 series of engines please!

 

[Tranona]

Tranona,

But your D1/30 has a 120 amp alternator - surely a 30hp (auxiliary) engine and a bow thruster on a 33' yacht is OTT



Jonathan

It is one of the new breed of boats where 33' overall is the same displacement as 36-7' boats of the last generation. It replaced a 37 and the two boats have the same waterline length and similar displacement (the 33 is a bit heavier). Although a D1 20 is the standard engine most in the UK have the optional 30.

As for the bow thruster, you have to see it in context, and see my berth. Then you will realise why I, in my 8th decade and a solo sailor specified a bow thruster. If I did not have it my sailing would be severely restricted because of the difficulty of getting the boat in and out of the berth. Rarely actually use it, but it is there when needed. The loss of 2' overhang each end compared with the old boat also helps.

 

[Neeves]

Tranona,

In that case I understand - seems very sensible, many could do with bow thrusters, but that has nothing to do with their age.

You are an example to us all.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Onia

I'd love to but I am on a course of powerful pain killers, 2 of which apparently are restricted narcotics and I have been banned, by doctor and wife, from carrying our dinghy.

I was instructed by our mechanic after our relay box failed, only 2 months ago. We have a 2020, but its exactly the same on the D2, as I was shown on that as well. I am sure someone else has the necessary skills - but its simply shorting, with a screw driver, a main power cable on the alternator and one other (and I'd need to look to tell and show you). Once the engine starts it runs and runs and you need to turn it off manually. You don't have any engine instrumentation (if the relay box fails) but you can get home.

Jonathan

 

[Ceirwan]

Its becoming habitual that I answer and then delete my post

I can assure you that charging a 400 amp house battery bank with 2 x 60 amp alternators takes a long time. A 120 amp alternator would be a boon. From memory you need to run the older engines quite fast to get the 60 amps but the new Volvos s]charge at maximum amps at much lower revs.

But your 400ah battery bank is not typical. I doubt most boats even have a 200 amp hour battery bank.
Add the fact that I believe the maximum recommended charge rate for sealed lead acid is 0.25c, so in the case of a 200ah bank, just 50amps.

And the fact that once the battery starts to get some charge into it it will accept less and less and current anyway.
Simply putting a bigger alternator on doesn't necessarily mean faster charging batteries.

 

[Neeves]

We take 4-5 month long annual cruises, never visit marinas and 400ah works for us. You are correct there are max amps that the bank will take, and I'm not sure what it is. We have 2 x 2020s, offering 120 amps - we have a smart charger. The 2 engines offer and the batteries accept the 120 amps until the batteries have a capacity of 280amps, at this point they accept less and less. However it would be more efficient to use one engine only offering 120amps which slowly reduces to the 60 amps of a single engine, (than the 2 engines) as we would normally start changing at -200amps. In practice as soon as the batteries start to reduce their acceptance of power we start the desal, turn the thermostats on the refridgeration units down etc, so continue to use the available power.

It depends on the batteries you have and also your usage of power. We don't give up on the benefits of the 21st century and have a desalinator, fridge, deep freeze, laptop, iPad, electric windlass, one electric winch. SSB, autopilot, radar etc - and never have enough power nor water (and if you do not visit marinas - you really need to make you own water).

With the limited information of anyone's requests on forum we can only give our personal recommendations. The OP has to make a value judgement himself, provide more information or ask more questions. We all have different yachts, equip our yachts to different levels and use them differently - if we did not answer posts because we feared our answer might not be applicable no-one would post at all. The alternative - OPs need to provide significantly more detail - then we would know our experience is not relevant and this forum would be a thinner medium

Jonathan

 

[cc pete]

I have a new D1-20 on a pallet , PRM 2-1 gearbox with large alternator , electronic panel replaced with conventional gauges and loom . engine is now surplus to requirements , PM me if its of interest .

 

[Neeves]

I have a new D1-20 on a pallet , PRM 2-1 gearbox with large alternator , electronic panel replaced with conventional gauges and loom . engine is now surplus to requirements , PM me if its of interest .

For my education

Why has the electronic panel been replaced with conventional gauges and loom - and what gauges? Does this encompass the relay box - interested in the reasons.

Jonathan

 

[cc pete]

For my education

Why has the electronic panel been replaced with conventional gauges and loom - and what gauges? Does this encompass the relay box - interested in the reasons.

Jonathan

Basically for reliability and cost , with the relay box at £500 + , tacho £600 , engine harness £270 , never mind the rest of the instruments and having to get Volvo out to fix it , it makes sense to future proof the system , why Volvo think its a good idea to fit EVC to a basic 20hp is beyond me . The new system has oil pressure , engine temp , tacho and voltage meters , main power on switch and push button crank and stop , it does away with the relay box and uses VDO instruments .

Rgds Peter

 

[Neeves]

Thanks Peter,

I need to get out more.

I knew Volvo had done away with the relay box with relays and replaced it with, what they call a 'relay box' without relays! I had not realised they had tarted up the display, or controls with lots of meters - I thought it was the same as the old MD series with coloured lights and one alarm but with automatic glow and 'electronic' start and stop. We have a boat show in 3 weeks I'll go and have a gander. But VDO - expensive and, I agree, OTT for a bog standard 20hp engine.

Jonathan

 

[cc pete]

Thanks Peter,

I need to get out more.

I knew Volvo had done away with the relay box with relays and replaced it with, what they call a 'relay box' without relays! I had not realised they had tarted up the display, or controls with lots of meters - I thought it was the same as the old MD series with coloured lights and one alarm but with automatic glow and 'electronic' start and stop. We have a boat show in 3 weeks I'll go and have a gander. But VDO - expensive and, I agree, OTT for a bog standard 20hp engine.

Jonathan

Hi Johnathan , the new "relay box" has a processor , relays and fuse surface mounted on a PCB , the senders in the engine signal to the processor which in turn gives an analogue signal to the gauges and signal for the warnings , the auto " glow " time is determined by the temp seen by the processor . Totally OTT in my opinion for this class of engine , hence why I removed it . The conventional system fitted can be understood and repaired by anyone . Agreed VDO are not the cheapest but are good quality , I like quality not unnecessary quantity !

Rgds Peter