Short handed YM Exam

[RupertW]

I think it depends quite considerably on the boat. I took mine with one crewmember, which I felt was sufficient notwithstanding having to stop what I was doing in order to assist an elderly gentleman in a white ensigned vessel whose main halyard had jammed with the sail half up. Had I been sailing a square rigger, I might have felt a little under-gunned.

I think there's a diferrence between having enough crew to sail safely and having enough crew to assess your YM ability. Most YMs candidates would be more comfortable with just one other crew member in a modern boat of any reasonable size, but wouldn't be able to demonstrate that they can coordinate a crew.

With just two on board a knowledgeable crew member knows they are responsible for everything that the skipper isn't doing, with more crew the skipper needs to allocate tasks and deal with any problems caused by mistakes and miscommunication.

Perhaps my own experience over-coloured things for me as my fellow candidate passed like me because he was used to two handed sailing, but during the prep week had got into difficulties again and again because he couldn't communicate with the four of us.

 

[dmmbruce]

Short handed - and Single handed.

The original post was about Short Handed YM exams.

Discussion has gone onto 3, 4 and more people on a boat for the exam. That's fine but it has nothing to do with Short Handed.

For years I have sailed mainly single handed. Sometimes one or maybe two others. Sometimes helping complete beginners to learn.

I now have a bad heart and bad legs, so I gave up messing about on tippy boats and got a 26ft cat. I'm now safe and able to sail solo very happily. I did YM theory a long time ago, was not eligible for the practical due to lack of logged miles, but at 70 plus, I thought I ought to get myself up to date and checked out.

So I went for an ICC. Every yacht school wanted to put me with a dragoon of unknowns on an unknown boat, at an unaffordable cost.

So I contacted an examiner who said I could do it on my own boat, and if I normally sailed single handed then I could do it that way, but it would be harder!

It was certainly hard!

The exam started with a systematic questioning and examination of my experience and past boats, crews, and trips. This was done over three long phone calls before hand and he had to be satisfied before he would do the practical.

The practical exam began with meeting the examiner ashore, getting him into the dinghy, getting him on board, getting him familiar with the key things on board etc etc. Through-out he was pleasant, willing and helpful, but NEVER showed any prior knowledge apart from commonsense. It was up to me to run my boat and my new temporary crew.

We had a formal exam session on chartwork etc etc.

We motored then sailed a lot, basically totally singlehanded, including the MOB stuff both under power, and just under sail.

Only when he had satisfied himself that all was ok did he start to contribute actively. He answered lots of my questions and was most helpful. He has sailed round the world and done almost everything so he was incredibly knowledgeable, and very interesting.

By the time I took him ashore I was shattered!

ICC is not the same as the full YM I realise. However it is serious.

The RYA system can and does allow for short handed qualification and perhaps this should be recognized more often.

Mike

 

[RupertW]

The original post was about Short Handed YM exams.

Discussion has gone onto 3, 4 and more people on a boat for the exam. That's fine but it has nothing to do with Short Handed.

Mike

I think the replies are absolutely answering the question. Some of us are saying that we don't like the idea of YM exam being short handed because 3 or 4 people are needed on board to test YM ability.

ICC, or Day Skipper is mostly about navigation, pilotage and boat handling which can all be demonstrated with one or no crew. The YM must surely have some element of leadership in it's exam, rather than just even better ability at boat work.

 

[marklucas]

Use the examiner as crew

When I did my YM, we had the usual cup of tea on Friday evening to get to know everyone and the boat.

The examiner actually volunteered himself that he was happy to act as crew if needed (there were three examinees) but clearly stated that we could only assume he had comp crew ability.

Only time I asked him to do anything was when I had to do MoB and simply asked him to point at the casualty. Easy and he didn't have to move from his position at the backstay and could see everything that was going on.

So even if the examiner doesn't offer I think there would be no offence taken if you asked (in advance) and if there were only two of you this would give the examiner the opportunity to assess your crew management skills, as he would be the new crew.

Hope that helps the debate.

 

[MARGETTS]

The YM exam is most definetely not about your group management capabilities. They need to know can you go safely from A to B with a reasonable amount of competence. You do not need to be a race candidate or have any desire to take a shilling off people. These are seperate issues. How you go about this and with how many crew you need is up to you. There is no pre determined Rya/mca methods.

If you know what you are up to, or on the other hand if you are a charletan, they will suss you out almost straight away. They are honest straightforward sailors. they do not expect perfection and I can tell you from being on board watching many exams that the most stress comes from the candidate to himself.
Most of us are far too critical of ourselves and need to relax in these situations, The examiners I have met know this and allow for it. Go for it your way and aim to enjoy it as much as possible.

Have fun

 

[capnsensible]

Why not simply read the RYA Instructor Handbook G27/04 ????

The bit titled 'The organisation and conduct of Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster Offshore exams.

By doing this, it will take out all the heresay and speculation. Its quite good because it does what it says in the title for not a lot of wonga.

 

[KellysEye]

>Not necessarily. The examiner might suggest that you had insufficient crew for the proposed passage.

I can't see why an examiner would specify crew numbers. If the examinee(s) sail two handed then they obviously think they have the experience to pass the exam. In fact I can't think of a passage that would need more than two crew, the very great majority of long distance liveaboard crews are two handed.

I do wonder though whether an examiner would would allow a singlehander to take the exam, since Colregs require a watch at all times.

 

[bedouin]

I do wonder though whether an examiner would would allow a singlehander to take the exam, since Colregs require a watch at all times.

I have heard of one person taking and passing YM single handed.

Nothing in Colregs suggests that there is any problem single handing - provided that person isn't asleep. At all times does not been watching continuously in all directlions

 

[capnsensible]

I have heard of one person taking and passing YM single handed.

Nothing in Colregs suggests that there is any problem single handing - provided that person isn't asleep. At all times does not been watching continuously in all directlions

'The most important part of the exam is the candidates ability to lead, motivate and communicate with the crew....'

Page 15, if the single hander passed, the examiner was at fault .

Could be heresay though.

 

[KellysEye]

>Nothing in Colregs suggests that there is any problem single handing - provided that person isn't asleep. At all times does not been watching continuously in all directlions

Rule 5
Proper look-out
–At all times
–By sight
– By hearing
– By all available means appropriate

We used to look around every couple of minutes day and night, often for weeks.

At all times is plain English and means what it says. Singlehanders on offshore passages can't do that. To put that into perspective in the Caribbean Chris Parker did a morning forecast which included 'Boat Watches' for overdue boats. We kept a note of them all and 25% were single handers who make up less than one per cent of long distance cruisers. Day sailing single handers shouldn't have a problem, provided they have prepared food and drink before leaving.

 

[Pete R]

When I did my YM, we had the usual cup of tea on Friday evening to get to know everyone and the boat.

The examiner actually volunteered himself that he was happy to act as crew if needed (there were three examinees) but clearly stated that we could only assume he had comp crew ability.

Same for me.

Don't see the problem in using the examiner as "comp crew".

 

[bedouin]

>Nothing in Colregs suggests that there is any problem single handing - provided that person isn't asleep. At all times does not been watching continuously in all directlions

Rule 5
Proper look-out
–At all times
–By sight
– By hearing
– By all available means appropriate

We used to look around every couple of minutes day and night, often for weeks.

At all times is plain English and means what it says. Singlehanders on offshore passages can't do that. To put that into perspective in the Caribbean Chris Parker did a morning forecast which included 'Boat Watches' for overdue boats. We kept a note of them all and 25% were single handers who make up less than one per cent of long distance cruisers. Day sailing single handers shouldn't have a problem, provided they have prepared food and drink before leaving.

I think in good visibility a 360 every 5 minutes is a proper lookout - that is not a problem for a single hander who is not asleep. Plenty of time to plot, navigate, boil the kettle and so on.

 

[RobF]

Most of the manoevres undertaken in the YM coastal / offshore exam should be capable of being undertaken by two people. Perhaps the only exceptions are:-
a) stacking the mainsail on a larger yacht where it's useful to have 2 people packing the sail and one doing the steering.
b) coming alongside in a marina

Speaking from experience, there were 2 of us on the MCA Coastal Skipper exam, plus the examiner. Our instructor had a conversation with the examiner on our behalf to ask whether he would be able to act as crew when required. He did the admirable job of acting as competent crew whilst being an outstanding examiner / yachtsman. Wish I could have him as my next instructor!

 

[andytrombone]

I've crewed on several YM Offshore exams with different examiners. Some examiners are happy to help a little when shorthanded in the cockpit, others state categorically when coming on the boat that they will take no active part sailing the vessel at all!

 

[Ribdiver]

Sorry I know this is nothign to do with the OP but is there a way of getting places as crew on YM Exams?

THanks

Gary

 

[alant]

Most of the manoevres undertaken in the YM coastal / offshore exam should be capable of being undertaken by two people. Perhaps the only exceptions are:-
a) stacking the mainsail on a larger yacht where it's useful to have 2 people packing the sail and one doing the steering.
b) coming alongside in a marina

Speaking from experience, there were 2 of us on the MCA Coastal Skipper exam, plus the examiner. Our instructor had a conversation with the examiner on our behalf to ask whether he would be able to act as crew when required. He did the admirable job of acting as competent crew whilst being an outstanding examiner / yachtsman. Wish I could have him as my next instructor!

Why is "b) coming alongside in a marina" an "exception"?

 

[haydude]

I was wondering if you can consider the examiner as part of the crew. Or is he there just to observe, ask questions and drink tea/coffee?

 

[dt4134]

You'll get a definitive answer from the RYA (as some have said).

Here's my take. Crew management was stressed as being important both before and during my exam. I overheard the examiner taking the least experienced crew member to one side to ask him what tasks had been delegated to him. Fortunately I'd just given him a couple of jobs to do. At another point I took the helm (for the first time since leaving the marina about seven hours earlier) and the examiner came up the companionway and asked what on earth was I doing steering the yacht when I was supposed to be managing her.

I know a serious single-handed offshore racer, I'd say the most competent sailor I know, who failed his YM the first time around for "...failing to involve the crew in the sailing of the vessel." As he put it, the crew they gave him was useless so he just did everything the examiner asked him to do with the boat on his own. He had a long and helpful discussion with the examiner afterwards and re-evaluated his skippering style and went back and passed.

 

[dunedin]

What do the panel think about sitting the YM Exam 2 handed?

GruffT

Surely this depends on why the OP is bothering to do the YM in the first place.

If intending to skipper charter boats or similar, best to do fully crewed to be more realistic. If needing the qualification to do professional sailing then get the best crew possible to maximise certainty of success.

If just doing to reassure that have the skills, best to do it with regular short handed crew - otherwise not proving anything.

And frankly having read through all of this post quite happy with my view not to bother and just go sailing instead of going through all the hassle of exams. ICC worthwhile if plan to charter in Croatia or similar, and easily done on own boat shorthanded. Anything more is optional unless intend to go professional.

 

[alant]

Surely this depends on why the OP is bothering to do the YM in the first place.

If intending to skipper charter boats or similar, best to do fully crewed to be more realistic. If needing the qualification to do professional sailing then get the best crew possible to maximise certainty of success.

If just doing to reassure that have the skills, best to do it with regular short handed crew - otherwise not proving anything.

And frankly having read through all of this post quite happy with my view not to bother and just go sailing instead of going through all the hassle of exams. ICC worthwhile if plan to charter in Croatia or similar, and easily done on own boat shorthanded. Anything more is optional unless intend to go professional.

"If intending to skipper charter boats or similar, best to do fully crewed to be more realistic. If needing the qualification to do professional sailing then get the best crew possible to maximise certainty of success."

Have you any idea of what the charter market is about?

As a skipper, you can have up to 12 people, all complete novices on-board, who you have to control/teach/look after (as well as sail/navigate/moor). Learning to manage a crew similar to that, would almost be a necessity if intending entering this pro sailing.