vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
No doubt there are similarities but the detail will be very different. This is what magazines are good at - updating us on new developments.
Shocking shrinkage of Yachting Monthly.
- Thread starter jonjo
- Start date
No doubt there are similarities but the detail will be very different. This is what magazines are good at - updating us on new developments.
Otter
Well-Known Member
I'm not being all argy bargy but the magazines aren't good at that stuff - they're much better at the stuff this forum does, tips, tricks and new gear. We've gone round in circles a couple of times already but if they were great then they'd have healthy readership levels, there are magazines with healthy circulation figures; but their quality reflects the pitifully small circulation figures. More people live in Portslade-by-Sea than read Yachting Monthly, which at its height had a bigger readership than the population of Newcastle. Sad, but I checked. They've been swamped by the internet and utterly, utterly failed to adapt. And again, another thread with ex-subscribers turning up to explain why we don't buy them anymore and the writers turning up to tell us we're wrong; I wish you'd listen to your customers, I want the magazines to thrive not die.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
What 'e said, in buckets.
snooks
Well-Known Member
Could you check again, please? YM highest number of readers was around 50,000, the population of Newcastle is around 292,000.
In order to be a customer, one would have to buy the magazine, but as you've repeatedly pointed out, you don't....So does the magazine provide for those who read it, or those who don't? It's a serious question...Does the magazine chase new readers (who may or may not be there) and risk losing, possibly alienating, its existing readers?
As you'll have seen by the ABC figures, all titles marine titles are down YOY, however, YM is down by the smallest percentage. But it's not just the marine titles that are down YOY, it's almost across all of Time inc's titles. Fact is, the internet is reducing readership numbers of practically all magazines (and newspapers). So while numbers have been gradually falling, Time inc have been working to keep the magazines profitable. Magazine closures, waves of redundancies (the first of which enabled me to take voluntary redundancy and go freelance), sold are the lovely offices on the Southbank; most specialist magazines now moved Farnborough.
When I started with YM in 1999, we used to have 9 or 10 full-time editorial staff, and produce 12 magazines a year. Now we produce 13 magazines a year with 4 full-time staff, one part time staff, and one freelance staff member (me). Yet more cuts are on the way; my position as technical editor will cease to be in the forthcoming months.
The editorial team of YM, 6 of us (for the moment), try to make the magazine the best we can. We too want the magazine to survive and thrive. But the editorial team doesn't make decisions about the paper stock, physical size, page count or budget. There have been many changes recently which the editorial team have been powerless over, so try as we might, the things we used to do well (like the youtube videos, as one example) we can't do any more. But please don't think this is the choice of the editorial team, we all work bloody hard to make the best magazine with the resources we have available.
macd
Well-Known Member
Perhaps he's referring to readership, as opposed to circulation figures, Snooks. There used to be an agency providing them, although perhaps it's disappeared. It deserved to: they were laughably inaccurate.
snooks
Well-Known Member
But the population of Portslade-by-Sea tallies to YM's current circulation figures of around 20K, and while I'd have loved YM's circulation to be the population of Newcastle, even with the model that each copy of YM is read by 5 people (think yacht clubs), we're still some way off the current population of Newcastle.
Of course, going back in time, there must have been a time when YM's current circulation was greater than the population of New York ;0D
prv
Well-Known Member
Isn't much of this thread (and all the other similar ones) precisely about how it's losing its existing readers? The comments are generally "I don't buy it any more" or "I cancelled my subscription", not "I looked at a copy or two and decided not to read any further".
Pete
jac
Well-Known Member
I do remember back in the day ( maybe mid 1990's) the mags having a circulation of about 65k.
macd
Well-Known Member
snooks
Well-Known Member
But would more readers be lost if YM were to try something different? Possibly increasing the loss of readership from 8% to 10% or 15% YOY? Does the magazine aim to attract more new readers, those who are new to sailing, but doing so will turn off those who have been reading for 20 years?
Going back to when I was learning about photography, in a pre-internet world, I'd buy a magazines, now I can find reviews, techniques and tips online within seconds rather than reading the mag and waiting a month for the next one. I can't remember the last photography magazine I bought.
Is the reason ex-readers are no longer buying because they have found an alternative source of sailing information (this forum/Youtube/blogs for instance) and no longer feel the need for YM? Or they have found a way of getting the magazine without having to buy it? Or is the magazine failing to educate and informs the way it used to?
Technology on cruising boats is slow moving, lumbering in fact, with the exception of Pontos winches haven't changed since the 70s, electronics still do what they did 20 years ago, but in a fancier way, and where there have been big gains, CHIRP radar, we have covered the subject, tested the devices and done what we can. Sail trim and shape hasn't changed, the way to manoeuvrer boats also hasn't changed for yonks, diesel engines are less serviceable, only one new folding prop has been launched since we did our test seven or eight years ago. New things like MEOSAR we have covered already. New boats and gear is the one area where there is a constant source of new material and I try to keep it varied and interesting.
Thousands are spent on market research/readership surveys which are used to try to improve the magazine and its content. It's also worth bearing in mind that the views of those on the forum make up a small section of the total readership of YM, and might not be truly reflective of YM's readership as a whole. It might often be the case that if someone on the forum is thinking something there are more, not on the forum, who may be thinking the same, but how many?
There is no right answer, making a magazine is not an exact science, the magazine, like a boat, is a compromise, we can't please everyone, we aim to please the majority, and make a magazine we, ourselves as sailors, would like to read. To see YM's YOY figures being the best in marine (admittedly still not great reading) is a positive, it could be worse, but every month we try to make a great magazine.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Newcastle-under-Lyme has a population of about 75,000. More realistic target?
prv
Well-Known Member
I can only answer for myself (obviously if anybody could answer for the whole readership that would be the holy grail for you guys
) as a former PBO subscriber.It's not point 2. True, for a year I did get the paper mag as part of the deal that included an electronic copy for the same price; that went to someone else and we split the subscription fee. But that was his idea and an opportunity I took up because it was there, I wasn't actively seeking to avoid the cost and I never looked for any other source for the magazine.
Point 1? Maybe a bit. I don't consciously feel like the forum takes the place of the magazines, they feel like different things. But perhaps without the forum (and the Internet in general) I would be more eager to receive a monthly dollop of sailing "stuff".
Point 3 comes closest. I just realised that the magazine had become increasingly boring and irrelevant to me.
- The "News" section was months out of date due to printing schedules.
- Practical how-to articles generally superficial, telling me things I already knew or were self-evident.
- Boat tests normally of uninteresting mainstream boats - yes, the ones that people will be buying, but I'm not in the market for a new boat. To have value as entertainment to non-buyers, the boats examined would have to be unusual, quirky, novel, specialised - which came up occasionally but not often.
- Other people's holiday snaps not of much interest to me.
- Articles on skills I know I'm a bit lacking on, like sail trim or weather, should have suited me very well. But somehow I always found them hard work to concentrate on. Maybe that format just doesn't work for me. Again, I can only describe my reactions, I'm not trying to speak for anyone else.
Pete
Mandarin331
Well-Known Member
Just to offset the outpouring of negativity over the last couple of pages I was an occasional reader for years, decided I enjoyed the content and so have been a subscriber for the past six months and will renew in a week.
The internet is fine for some things, but I like to be able to pick up a magazine and read on paper, on the train, on board or just at home. Yes it's thinner than it used to be as it used to contain half a catalogue of chandlery adverts, which I suspect financed most of the running costs.
Life must be tough in the editorial office, but please keep up your spirits and the good work.
The internet is fine for some things, but I like to be able to pick up a magazine and read on paper, on the train, on board or just at home. Yes it's thinner than it used to be as it used to contain half a catalogue of chandlery adverts, which I suspect financed most of the running costs.
Life must be tough in the editorial office, but please keep up your spirits and the good work.
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Otter
Well-Known Member
If the mags are to thrive, which we want them to, then the staff have to listen to their present and ex-customers and the owners have to listen to the staff. The former doesn't happen because every thread about this results in us being told that we're wrong, so I guess they picked up that habit from the owners. I'm leaving this thread and won't bother with any others on this topic as I know what they will say:
Customers: "YM/PBO is getting smaller; never investigates or challenges; and is repetitive"
Staff: "You're wrong to think that and we work really hard"
My last contribution: merge all the Time Inc boating titles and this forum into one glorious online magazine with teaser freebies but mostly a subscription model with interaction, video, step by step how-to guides and demonstrations of new gear; master classes; investigation and expose. Yep sad to see the paper go but you'll have lost it anyway within five years. This way you go with the tide of the internet instead of fighting it.
Won't happen though, there isn't the bravery required, just a management of a steady decline, keeping each incremental cut as small as possible.
Customers: "YM/PBO is getting smaller; never investigates or challenges; and is repetitive"
Staff: "You're wrong to think that and we work really hard"
My last contribution: merge all the Time Inc boating titles and this forum into one glorious online magazine with teaser freebies but mostly a subscription model with interaction, video, step by step how-to guides and demonstrations of new gear; master classes; investigation and expose. Yep sad to see the paper go but you'll have lost it anyway within five years. This way you go with the tide of the internet instead of fighting it.
Won't happen though, there isn't the bravery required, just a management of a steady decline, keeping each incremental cut as small as possible.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
... and to prove it, our fall in circulation isn't quite as rapid as some of the other magazines'."
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
I can only speak for myself though I suspect my own case is like many others. I have been sailing for 30 years or more. In the beginning I bought the magazines and learned a lot from them. But there only is a certain amount to learn in sailing - there is very little that is truly new coming along and even less of that affects the cruiser. So every year the magazines have less and less in them to catch my eye. Its a brave man that says he knows it all, but I do know most of what I want to know or need to know about the sort of sailing I do.
If I go into WHS, I glance at the mags and read an occasional article. Its the same in the Club if, that is , some member has not walked off with our copy.
I do subscribe to magazines for motorcycles and cars and finance where I do find interesting informative new things to read, but not for boats where its most all been said. But for exactly this reason I dont look at boating sites on the net for information either. This site and NTL are really no more than chat rooms.
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lpdsn
Well-Known Member
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there. I'm a long way away from knowing it all, but I've pretty much given up all hope of learning more from the mags like YM.
It could be done though. There are mags that aim higher up the learning curve than YM. Professional Boatbuilder has some very detailed articles, albeit it is aimed at those working in the industry as the name implies. I also used to subscribe to Speed'n'Smarts until quite recently but I'm not doing as much racing as I used to so let it lapse last year.
woodstock
Well-Known Member
Well I for one look forward to my PBO arriving each month. Enjoy the project boat series, always learn something from the seamanship articles and Javelin's new View from the Boatyard articles are fascinating. They could probably lose a columnist or two but all told I find it a good mix for me. Keep up the good work!