Shared ownership - good or bad idea ?

[madabouttheboat]

A KAD44 rebuild kit is around £2k. My mechanic charges £40 per hour so £8k would pay for 200 hours of labour. That doesn't sound like cutting corners to me?

I'll admit that there would be some additional costs like a lift, storage ashore and the hire of a crane. But these wouldn't be massive costs.

Rebuild for what though? That's just gaskets, rings, bearings etc. If the engine has let go, there is likely to be significant other costs. Many professional rebuilders would not reuse items such as turbo chargers, they would send off the injection pump for testing/overhaul. Same with injectors. They might have the crankshaft inspected for microscopic cracks, heat exchangers/after coolers inspected and cleaned. The list goes on. As I said, you can get an engine overhauled for £10K, but ask a Volvo dealer how much they would charge for doing an overhaul on a KAD44. Now you may say that you wouldn't use a Volvo dealer for such work, but they will do it properly with original OEM parts, all the special tools and offer a warranty on their work. As someone who said:

• How the boat is maintained (I'm quite fussy so I make sure that the boat isn't deteriorating)

That might mean something.

 

[petem]

Rebuild for what though? That's just gaskets, rings, bearings etc. If the engine has let go, there is likely to be significant other costs. Many professional rebuilders would not reuse items such as turbo chargers, they would send off the injection pump for testing/overhaul. Same with injectors. They might have the crankshaft inspected for microscopic cracks, heat exchangers/after coolers inspected and cleaned. The list goes on. As I said, you can get an engine overhauled for £10K, but ask a Volvo dealer how much they would charge for doing an overhaul on a KAD44. Now you may say that you wouldn't use a Volvo dealer for such work, but they will do it properly with original OEM parts, all the special tools and offer a warranty on their work. As someone who said:

• How the boat is maintained (I'm quite fussy so I make sure that the boat isn't deteriorating)

That might mean something.

My experience of franchised Volvo dealers is poor (we've been using independents firms for the past 7 years, our current chap being the ex head engineer from the local VP dealer). But I'm willing to accept that there's good and bad people whether you go the franchised route or not.

As for the re-build costs, I think we can both agree that the cost would depend on what happened to require the re-build in the first place. The answer is probably somewhere between your estimate and mine.

Note that we haven't had a single week when the boat has been unavailable due to engine problems (and we're now in our 7th year). So we must be doing something right!

 

[Refueler]

I have known so many Shared Ownerships where its been good for a while until one side finds themselves shouldering unfair amount of maintenance .... I watched one friendship ending badly ..... despite them having known each other for most of their lives ..

Its why I declined my Brothers idea to get a boat together .... it was obvious that I would then shoulder the lions share living closer to the boat etc.

Personally I would only consider it if run via a Management Company .... removing the shared maintenance etc factors. But then I would never feel like real owner ...

 

[jrudge]

I have shared an aircraft but that is certified so owner fiddling is a non issue!

There are two practical issue really

Boats go wrong and as a shared owner you have less time on board so it needs to work and you don't want to play with it so outside of say a designated maintenance week you need local engineering support to fix major stuff as it happens and minors on hand over days.

You also need a cleaning crew to set the boat so each owner always gets onto a clean and consistently prepared boat and the last day of the trip is not spent washing the boat and sheets and changing beds at 5am as you leave for your early flight.

As a bonus point find a storage locker so personal items can be swapped for each owner.

 

[petem]

I have known so many Shared Ownerships where its been good for a while until one side finds themselves shouldering unfair amount of maintenance .... I watched one friendship ending badly ..... despite them having known each other for most of their lives ..

Its why I declined my Brothers idea to get a boat together .... it was obvious that I would then shoulder the lions share living closer to the boat etc.

Personally I would only consider it if run via a Management Company .... removing the shared maintenance etc factors. But then I would never feel like real owner ...

For a small syndicate, providing you've got good boat fixers and cleaners, apart from the cost (which won;t be cheap) I'd consider employing a Management Company to be counter productive. I'd much rather speak to trades people myself than someone who's managing lots of other boats and stroppy owners.

 

[petem]

I think the size of a syndicate is important. Based on his own experience, @jfm advised me years ago that three is the magic number. It makes a considerable cost saving over sole ownership, each person feels like the're an owner (as opposed to a charterer), the boat doesn't get hammered, and there's still lots of potential for ad-hoc use.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I think the size of a syndicate is important. Based on his own experience, @jfm advised me years ago that three is the magic number. It makes a considerable cost saving over sole ownership, each person feels like the're an owner (as opposed to a charterer), the boat doesn't get hammered, and there's still lots of potential for ad-hoc use.

Voice of experience.

 

[Mileholm]

I think the size of a syndicate is important. Based on his own experience, @jfm advised me years ago that three is the magic number. It makes a considerable cost saving over sole ownership, each person feels like the're an owner (as opposed to a charterer), the boat doesn't get hammered, and there's still lots of potential for ad-hoc use.

So you’re saying that once a syndicate moves beyond 3 co-owners, the cost saving is unlikely to make up for the enjoyment?

I guess that makes a lot of sense. On the basis of your Fairline Targa 34 costing £15k per annum to run; going from £7.5k per person (between 2) to £5k (between 3) would be tangible. The the next step down to £3.75k (between 4) or even to £3k (between 5) would seem minor, but the boat will see much heavier use. Same with the cost of the shares.

 

[Mileholm]

As per title, looking ahead to what comes next and having had nearly three years of ownership experience now, i know i love my boating but realise that the cost vs the time i can get to go (med based boat, UK based home), would logically suit it being a shared experience with someone else of the same mind.

Of course this would lead to a professional agreement put in place to ensure protection both ways but it certainly has it’s merits when considering the pro’s and cons, if you can find teh right person with teh same thinking, who has also been boating and arrived at the same conclusions as me. This would also enable an upgrade to something i probably couldn’t afford on my own whilst still reducing the purchase and ownership costs during the journey.

So, how to go about finding someone and that is my question for the learned members here. Does anyone know of “Dating sites” for bringing together boat owners looking to share a boat ?

And by all means, please share your experiences, good & bad, if this is something that you have already done yourselves.

I have been thinking about the same thing and started a thread here: Syndicate as way into boating last year. A lot of similar and high quality responses to the ones you've had above.

I ended up getting myself a 26ft sportscruiser to gain more experience on a smaller boat closer to home in Scotland before getting into a bigger boat in the Med.

What sort of boat were you thinking about and what sort of location? Are you looking to syndicate your current one?

 

[jrudge]

So you’re saying that once a syndicate moves beyond 3 co-owners, the cost saving is unlikely to make up for the enjoyment?

I guess that makes a lot of sense. On the basis of your Fairline Targa 34 costing £15k per annum to run; going from £7.5k per person (between 2) to £5k (between 3) would be tangible. The the next step down to £3.75k (between 4) or even to £3k (between 5) would seem minor, but the boat will see much heavier use. Same with the cost of the shares.

Bear in mind the boating season ( even in the med ) is relatively short.

May to October. At both ends but June to September being prime so 4 months.

Three shares gives everyone 5 ish weeks in season which is a good time on the boat.

It is also not just about time but about when that time is - as July and August are " super peak " so with 3 everyone is getting good weeks as well as less good.

As the numbers rise this changes.

You could do 4 and it would likely work well if some people had kids and some did not but above that peoples time is going to be based on a random draw and someone is going to be unhappy.

It also makes a difference if people are self employed or employees. Employees are only going to get 4-6 weeks holiday and likely 2 of those weeks will be committed to Xmas etc so more in a syndicate might work but then the dates are going to be more random which may well skupper it !

 

[jon and michie]

Aquaholic (Nick Burnham) Did a meet the owner video the other year which was a shared ownership - between 2 friends it seemed to work for them

 

[Mileholm]

Aquaholic (Nick Burnham) Did a meet the owner video the other year which was a shared ownership - between 2 friends it seemed to work for them

 

[leonfoxyy]

I know many points have already been covered but I thought I would share my experience in a shared ownership.
There are only two of us, having only known each other for 3 months beforehand, we are approaching our 4th year of shared ownership and managed to buy two boats together in that time.
The latest being a 32ft sports cruiser which we have owned for 12 months and simply allocate alternate weekends in a shared calendar.
We do most of our own maintenance/upgrades and often do it together to ensure two sets of eyes and if anything goes wrong we are both present and involved.
We have shared finances via a joint account which we overpay to ensure a slush fund for anything which needs purchasing, plus we even split the fuel costs as we generally use it about the same amount per year.
We agreed that it’s one in all in, i.e if either of us has a failure we both cover it 50/50.
What I think makes it work is the fact we are both equally passionate about the boat, we share the same values and principles having both worked in aviation engineering.
The boat is fastidiously maintained as a result of two people actively looking after it and funding anything it needs plus upgrades.
I also find having somebody invested the same as I am is very good; we can go for a beer and talk about our boat, what we like and what we want to improve.
We often take it out together and learn from each other. We share experiences of when we go out with our own friends/family and even have a shared photo album!
I personally wouldn’t change a thing but my wife would beg to differ!!
To safeguard we are down as shared owners on the boats paperwork, SSR registered, have an RYA ownership agreement in place, shared insurance, joint account, spreadsheets of all expenditure and servicing. Plus we have both undertaken the same RYA training to ensure competency.
Basically finding the right person is the key to this being successful.

 

[petem]

So you’re saying that once a syndicate moves beyond 3 co-owners, the cost saving is unlikely to make up for the enjoyment?

I guess that makes a lot of sense. On the basis of your Fairline Targa 34 costing £15k per annum to run; going from £7.5k per person (between 2) to £5k (between 3) would be tangible. The the next step down to £3.75k (between 4) or even to £3k (between 5) would seem minor, but the boat will see much heavier use. Same with the cost of the shares.

Exactly right. Also, someone is going to be responsible for managing the boat and sorting out problem. It's a lot to ask if there are say 8 owners and the boat is in constant use. Plus, having fewer owners should give some time between visits to sort any issues out.

 

[Parabolica]

Thank you all for your replies. Some very good info in amongst it all.

I’m currently out enjoying my boat so will reply in more detail soon.