Service of Engines before purchase, who takes costs?

[Tranona]

The contract can easily be broken - the purchase is subject to inspection and seatrial.

That can only happen if the survey and sea trial show that the boat is not as described - that is there are significant defects.

The original question was about who services the engines, and if this was n issue it should have been agreed before the contract was signed. As it is the buyer signed the contract on the basis of knowing the service history was weak and on his inspection of the boat. He cannot then insist the seller services the engines, nor withdraw if he does not.

 

[Stats007]

Not true - a seatrial is subjective and you can cancel the contract simply if you don't like how a boat handles.

 

[Tranona]

Not true - a seatrial is subjective and you can cancel the contract simply if you don't like how a boat handles.

No, you cannot. The sea trial is to test that the boat performs as described - that is all the gear works and the boat achieves its expected performance, NOT whether you like it. If you cancelled at that point the seller is entitled to retain your deposit and you would be responsible for any costs. The contract does not say "subject to whether I like the boat". No seller would accept such a condition.

He may however offer a trial beforehand if he thinks this will persuade the buyer to sign a contract. Otherwise the assumption is that the buyer is happy the boat is what he wants and is prepared to commit to buying it by signing a contract.

 

[Sailorsam101]

Is not the question here...Would you want to run engines that have not been touched for two years?

I would say not...even if the sea trail is fine...what damage might occur by running like this?

 

[Stats007]

No, you cannot. The sea trial is to test that the boat performs as described - that is all the gear works and the boat achieves its expected performance, NOT whether you like it. If you cancelled at that point the seller is entitled to retain your deposit and you would be responsible for any costs. The contract does not say "subject to whether I like the boat". No seller would accept such a condition.

He may however offer a trial beforehand if he thinks this will persuade the buyer to sign a contract. Otherwise the assumption is that the buyer is happy the boat is what he wants and is prepared to commit to buying it by signing a contract.

I'm afraid you can and every boat I've bought has been on this basis. Speak to any broker - they will tell you the same thing.

Deposits is not retained - you pay for the launch and fuel costs for a seatrial but thats it.

 

[Blue Sunray]

No, you cannot. The sea trial is to test that the boat performs as described - that is all the gear works and the boat achieves its expected performance, NOT whether you like it. If you cancelled at that point the seller is entitled to retain your deposit and you would be responsible for any costs. The contract does not say "subject to whether I like the boat". No seller would accept such a condition.

He may however offer a trial beforehand if he thinks this will persuade the buyer to sign a contract. Otherwise the assumption is that the buyer is happy the boat is what he wants and is prepared to commit to buying it by signing a contract.

Not entirely sure about that, on my last purchase the "standard" contract was modified to the sea trial being "to the purchaser's complete satisfaction". To be fair I don't know how that would have held up to 'events' as the sea trial was fine.

 

[MapisM]

To be fair I don't know how that would have held up to 'events' as the sea trial was fine.

Well, you'll never know of course, but a clause like that does seem to leave an extremely high degree of discretionality to the buyer - unless what "complete satisfaction" actually means was further specified elsewhere in the contract.
You did well in asking such modification, but actually I agree with Tranona that this is not the norm, and that many sellers (albeit obviously not "no seller" as Tranona said, since yourself and Stats007 found some...) would not accept it.

 

[Stats007]

It was Ancasta who pointed out originally that I could reject a boat on this basis after a seatrial. It makes sense - why would you buy a boat if you didn't like the way it behaved?

Blame the brokers for requiring a signed contract before a seatrial is allowed.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Well, you'll never know of course, but a clause like that does seem to leave an extremely high degree of discretionality to the buyer - unless what "complete satisfaction" actually means was further specified elsewhere in the contract.
You did well in asking such modification, but actually I agree with Tranona that this is not the norm, and that many sellers (albeit obviously not "no seller" as Tranona said, since yourself and Stats007 found some...) would not accept it.

Actually I didn't ask - it was the broker's suggestion, I suspect a well calculated move on his part as he knew the boat and had made an assessment that the risk of rejection was pretty low and thus the demonstration of confidence the suggestion created increased the likelihood of a sale for a relatively low risk.

I do wonder how many sales are lost by a dogmatic application of what is after all just custom and practice. I know that if/when I come to sell I'd use that broker for the sale.

 

[Tranona]

I'm afraid you can and every boat I've bought has been on this basis. Speak to any broker - they will tell you the same thing.

Deposits is not retained - you pay for the launch and fuel costs for a seatrial but thats it.

You are just plain wrong. The standard contract does not allow you to do that. Suggest you read it and show where such a condition exists.

Only last week a broker friend was telling me about a recent case where he did indeed retain the deposit because the seller changed his mind after signing.

The standard condition is "subject to survey and sea trial" - not whether the buyer likes the boat or not. How could it be otherwise, as the contract commits both sides and what seller would agree to take his boat off the market and commit to a buyer who might change his mind?

 

[BruceK]

I think a lot depends on the interpretation of "subject to survey and sea trial" and the particular market. It appears from what I have read here that the top of the range (new /ish) boats this is adhered to more strictly than older second hand boats and small boats. I know the fast fisher crowd wont touch a boat contract until they have had a sea trial in it and then there is me and my brokerage boat where the broker was rather accommodating when I rejected one boat because the engine was a bit tired and performance wasn't as expected, albeit arguably within expected wear and tear for the age. Then again I did buy my present one from him so he could afford to be magnanimous.

 

[Blue Sunray]

The standard condition is "subject to survey and sea trial" - not whether the buyer likes the boat or not. How could it be otherwise, as the contract commits both sides and what seller would agree to take his boat off the market and commit to a buyer who might change his mind?

However as with all other aspects of the 'standard' contract it can be changed with agreement. No obligation on either side to do so of course but it might (or indeed might not) make the difference between a sale or not.

In answer to your question the chap who sold to me was happy with this and it worked for us both. It is a long time since I have bought or sold a house in England so things may have changed, but when I did I was very aware that the buyer (or seller) could change their mind after it came off the market (is gazumping or gazundering the current trend?).

 

[Stats007]

You are just plain wrong. The standard contract does not allow you to do that. Suggest you read it and show where such a condition exists.

Only last week a broker friend was telling me about a recent case where he did indeed retain the deposit because the seller changed his mind after signing.

The standard condition is "subject to survey and sea trial" - not whether the buyer likes the boat or not. How could it be otherwise, as the contract commits both sides and what seller would agree to take his boat off the market and commit to a buyer who might change his mind?

Clearly I'm not as I've cancelled two contracts - one with MGM and one with Ancasta on that basis recently and received my money and deposits back. I suggest it's your interpretation of what a seatrial actually is may be the difference. Changing your mind about buying a boat is not the same as rejecting it because it doesn't meet your requirements.

 

[Tranona]

Clearly I'm not as I've cancelled two contracts - one with MGM and one with Ancasta on that basis recently and received my money and deposits back. I suggest it's your interpretation of what a seatrial actually is may be the difference. Changing your mind about buying a boat is not the same as rejecting it because it doesn't meet your requirements.

Read 5.1 of the RYA model contract. It is specific about "a sea trial of the boat, her gear and machinery and all items included in the sale". While it then gives the right to reject if these items do not perform satisfactorily for any reason, the normal interpretation would no include because you did not like the boat. If the seller agrees to a wider interpretation, then fine, but that is not what is intended in the contract.

Remember a contract is a commitment on both sides. The seller cannot withdraw or enter negotiations with anybody else, and it is not reasonable for him to then let you choose to reject the boat unless the boat is not as described.

 

[MapisM]

Changing your mind about buying a boat is not the same as rejecting it because it doesn't meet your requirements.

And the difference is, exactly?
If your "requirements" are wide enough to include not "liking" anything about the boat, that's just about the same as changing your mind, in practice.
I even wonder why whoever accepted your offers signed the contracts and why you were asked to pay deposits, to start with.
Offering you to make a seatrial and eventually jump straight to the closing would have been simpler, I reckon... :nonchalance:

 

[jrudge]

Essex ( Boats.co.uk) have a simpler method.

You put down a deposit. If you dont like it or dont want to complete they give it back. The deposit just takes the boat of the market.

They want you to be happy. If not happy then dont buy it.

Now they are not a private seller and I am talking about stock boats but there is a refreshing simplicity.

The whole boat buying process is a bit daft. If the boat is on shore and there are costs to launch then fair enough ( to a point) the buyer should cover. Other than that man up and realise you are selling a X hundred K asset and take the bloke out for a spin.

Now I appreciate you have to make some judgement if they are messing you about and balance this with how inconvenient it is for you to take the boat out, but the industry does seem to have itself to blame by making it complex, contracts and so on. Is it a coincidence that boats.co.uk seem to see more than anyone else?

From a preceding post maybe Ancaster ( who I dont know) take the same view.

Henry flogs Porsche's . I doubt he requires a deposit and a contract for a road trial. It will hop in ( subject again to his or his staffs view of if the person is serious or not.) ( I can see the reply now ... and I will be proved wrong!)

People get if people are serious wrong as well. Princess basically told me I was a time waster. I went over the road back to Fairline Southampton ( as was) and signed for an S65 with Trevor Betts.

The joys of buying an selling boats!

Back to the origin question. Buyer wants it serviced - buyer pays - simples.

 

[scubaman]

Regarding contracts, when I bought my current boat I did have the contract modified to state that I can reject the boat for any reason. The broker understood that I was travelling over from overseas which showed commitment from my part and obviously helped in having the contract modified.

We don't know the terms of the contract the op has signed, but if there is any latitude regarding rejecting the boat, I would try a 50/50 split on the servicing costs. Hurts both a bit but on the sellers side it would help to ensure a successfull seatrial (and lessen the risk of rejection) and from the buyers side chipping in would be fair as he is the one benefitting from it (assuming a successful closing).

 

[volvopaul]

Essex ( Boats.co.uk) have a simpler method.

You put down a deposit. If you dont like it or dont want to complete they give it back. The deposit just takes the boat of the market.

They want you to be happy. If not happy then dont buy it.

Now they are not a private seller and I am talking about stock boats but there is a refreshing simplicity.

The whole boat buying process is a bit daft. If the boat is on shore and there are costs to launch then fair enough ( to a point) the buyer should cover. Other than that man up and realise you are selling a X hundred K asset and take the bloke out for a spin.

Now I appreciate you have to make some judgement if they are messing you about and balance this with how inconvenient it is for you to take the boat out, but the industry does seem to have itself to blame by making it complex, contracts and so on. Is it a coincidence that boats.co.uk seem to see more than anyone else?

From a preceding post maybe Ancaster ( who I dont know) take the same view.

Henry flogs Porsche's . I doubt he requires a deposit and a contract for a road trial. It will hop in ( subject again to his or his staffs view of if the person is serious or not.) ( I can see the reply now ... and I will be proved wrong!)

People get if people are serious wrong as well. Princess basically told me I was a time waster. I went over the road back to Fairline Southampton ( as was) and signed for an S65 with Trevor Betts.

The joys of buying an selling boats!

Back to the origin question. Buyer wants it serviced - buyer pays - simples.

Hmm , I've hit the same view, I've tracked an owner down and wanted to a deal direct but boats on with PMY so at moment I'm out, shame as its a nice boat. Not sure I want to get involved.

 

[KajLehtinen]

I was qouted a something called basic check of the engines when I asked for engine survey plus got info that I can get a engineer with me on the seatrial if I want but it wasnt specifed what the engineer would do during the seatrial apart from earning money

 

[KajLehtinen]

Now that this thread has drifted to "Subject to Seatrial and (Engine) Survey" - what would be the common view on whats good and not in the seatrial? Someone mentioned handling & likability of that.

I was thinking topspeed (good or dogdy engines) - Sealine states 30-32 knots on TAMD74p on the new boat, Is a 10% reduction of topspeed OK? 5%? Or should the engines hit that speedrange no matter what? Ofcourse given standard spec on boat, no extra ordinary load, against tide vs with tide etc etc.

/Kaj