Semi displacement / planing, fuel prices

[MapisM]

Purely imho, there's no way a prin50 will be a white elephant due to fuel pricing in say 4-10 years when you might choose to sell it.

Mmmm.... "White elephant" is maybe a tad exaggerated.
But I know many (and I mean it) planing boat owners who are considering the move to D/SD boats, and are struggling to get rid of their current boat.
Otoh, I've yet to hear of one single case where the opposite applies.
Here and now, this is a fact. What will happen in 4-10 yrs, well, I can predict anything but the future...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

At a guess, I'd say the double fuel filters - if that.
But tbh, I wouldn't want to pay for any of the other equipment you mentioned, if I'd be interested in a planing 50' footer.
I don't really see the point of those, for a boat essentially aimed at coastal day cruising in fair weather.

Nope, not double filters and if you do specify them as an option, you'll probably get cheapo Separ ones. Of course you don't need this equipment (except maybe for the double filters) on a weekend fair weather planing boat but I was trying to illustrate some of the differences between planing boats and d/semi d boats as the OP was comparing them

 

[jfm]

Which of those items is standard on a Sq50?

The only thing on that list that the Nord has but the Sq50 doesn't is a crude fuel polisher whereby the port-stbd tank transfer pump squirts the fuel through a Racor, which is a whole pile of use (NOT!) if you take on bad fuel and isn't fuel polishing in the proper sense, and I think the double fuel primaries. But we are not comparing same cost boats here

At 80 feet you get all those things on OR, N'Havn and Squadron, except that on the Squadron the polisher is an option and you get restriction guages on all the filters (fuel and hydraulic)

 

[jfm]

I was trying to illustrate some of the differences between planing boats and d/semi d boats as the OP was comparing them

But those difference are nowt to do with the D/SD/P nature of the hull. They are just spec choices by the builder/customer. Sure a double Racor is better than a single Separ but that doesn't mean the boat it's nailed to is better for a given user modus operandi

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But I know many (and I mean it) planing boat owners who are considering the move to D/SD boats, and are struggling to get rid of their current boat.
)

FWIW, I hear the same thing from brokers in the Med particularly concerning mid size flybridge boats. I am not looking forward to selling my boat when the time comes because I'm going to take a big hit

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The only thing on that list that the Nord has but the Sq50 doesn't is a crude fuel polisher whereby the port-stbd tank transfer pump squirts the fuel through a Racor, which is a whole pile of use (NOT!) if you take on bad fuel and isn't fuel polishing in the proper sense, and I think the double fuel primaries. But we are not comparing same cost boats here

At 80 feet you get all those things on OR, N'Havn and Squadron, except that on the Squadron the polisher is an option and you get restriction guages on all the filters (fuel and hydraulic)

All the items I have listed are standard on the N52 except for twin gennies. The fuel polishing systems (and oil change systems) are generally Reverso http://reversopumps.com/fuel-polishing-systems/fuel-polishing-marine/fuel-polishing-kit and whilst I wouldn't call them crude, they're not sophisticated but any fuel polishing system is better than none.
No we're not comparing like for like, weight for weight or cost for cost as you say but the OP mentioned Nordhavn so I ran with it. Cheaper d boats like Selenes, which will have similar systems, are comparable on price with mid price planing boats

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But those difference are nowt to do with the D/SD/P nature of the hull. They are just spec choices by the builder/customer. Sure a double Racor is better than a single Separ but that doesn't mean the boat it's nailed to is better for a given user modus operandi

No of course they're not but that tends to be the reality. D/SD boats in this size range tend to be aimed at the more experienced boater who values that equipment whereas P boats tend to major on other features. I wonder how many Sunseeker buyers even know what a fuel polishing system is?

 

[jfm]

I wonder how many Sunseeker buyers even know what a fuel polishing system is?

I get your general drift. That said, i wonder how many N'havn owners know. They all have these polishers (like the Reverso you linked to) that are just pumps, nothng more and nothing less. They take fuel out of the tank and put it thru a nice Racor then put it bank in the same tank, doh, and they call that "fuel polishing"! FFS, such a system is obviously complete bollox, yet lots of owners of such deadweight claim to have "fuel polishing". It's useless as polishing unless it goes to a fresh tank but even Nordhavn seem not to find the space to do that

 

[Nautical]

I can just tell this is going to turn into a bun fight

Everyone has a point and everyone is right (in my view anyway), these are boats we are talking about and we will defend to hell and back our own particular choice, and quite right too.

My own tuppeny worth is really only on sea keeping when it really goes pear shaped. Fraid a "production" planing hull is not going to be up there with a heavy displacement or big Semi displacement ORY or similar. It maybe "survivable" in a planning hull, FairPrinAziFerr etc but, bloody uncomfortable and quite scary as everything bangs, rattles and groans slamming head too or sliding down a steep face into the back of another 25 footer hour after hour and 60 knots of wind trying to rip your bimini off.

In a former life I ve seen the results of production planning mobo's after been caught out in the nasty's, a mess, ceiling panels on the floor, TV's cracked, water everywhere from puney port holes stoved in, canvas ripped to shreads, joints in woodwork opening up, doors that won't close anymore because frames have been twisted, even silicone joints between GRP panels an inch wide.

OK so those conditions would be in the extreme and most people would be a smart enough not to get caught out, nevertheless, if you have intention of going hundreds of miles offshore you don't have that luxury so whatever you are on has to be able to stay together perhaps for days at a time while getting the bejesus kicked out of it and not be collecting bits in a plastic bag when back in port.

I would agree with JFM and others that for Henry the P50 will do everything and more and it would be a waste of his/family time to be plodding along at 7 knots in fair winds just to save a few hundred quid in fuel, time is more precious in this case I would suggest.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I get your general drift. That said, i wonder how many N'havn owners know. They all have these polishers (like the Reverso you linked to) that are just pumps, nothng more and nothing less. They take fuel out of the tank and put it thru a nice Racor then put it bank in the same tank, doh, and they call that "fuel polishing"! FFS, such a system is obviously complete bollox, yet lots of owners of such deadweight claim to have "fuel polishing". It's useless as polishing unless it goes to a fresh tank but even Nordhavn seem not to find the space to do that

Thats not quite true. Most boats are fitted with a day tank, the idea being that the fuel is taken from the main tank and deposited in the day tank and its only the small amount in the day tank which is recycled through the fuel polishing system. If you like, it's a batch system rather than a continuous system

 

[jfm]

Most boats are fitted with a day tank,

Do you have data for that mike or is it a guess? Most Nhavns don't, going by their website

We're drifting a bit so maybe we should get back to OP's questions. I still think, as Nautical also says, that Prin50 or similar makes loads more sense in tidal UK coastal crusing.

One thing that does occur to me on pricing/residuals/white elephants, and it might be a total guess and a wrong one, but there might be coming a time when it makes more sense to buy a 50footer that is newer. If you buy new or nearly new, you will be selling in say 4 years time into a price bracket where the buyer is less sensitive to fuel cost. The older and cheaper the boat becomes the more significant fuel burn becomes as a % of total ownership cost and as % of owner's disposable income. I'm generalising massively- this is a msort of macro economic argument. Hence you would expect high fuel price to hammer the value harder on a 20 yo Princess 50-style boat than a 4 year old one.

With a quite old Porsche Henry the buyer surely asks more about "How much does the servicing cost on this?" whereas new buyer couldn't care less. If servicing was subject to 100% VAT overnight the older cars would take a bigger % value hit than the newer ones I bet

Maybe. Just a thought.

 

[henryf]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to everyone. The day job & all that

Can I start by saying thank you John, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply and what you say makes a lot of sense, particularly in terms of age of boat purchased. That brings me neatly on to MapisM's point about people struggling to sell their boats at the moment.

One of the things which makes new or nearly new boats from the dealers so appealing is the fact they are priced properly. I have a pretty good understanding now of the 50 foot market. I know what a new boat is worth as a cash buy, I know where the trade would value a used boat and I know what I think is a fair private sale price for a used boat. I can also remember what new boats were selling for a few years ago.

The problem is private sellers generally want more for their boats than a newer one from the dealer which includes support and hand holding. What do you say to the private seller asking new / ex demo money for a 2009 boat? There are boats out there £200,000 too expensive. How long do they have to be on the market for before someone thinks hang on a minute.... Just look at the adverts. so does it surprise me that you know a few people who are struggling to sell at the moment? No, it doesn't. I have also yet to see a properly presented used boat, one that left me hurting inside because I wanted it so much.

It doesn't help buyer confidence that many boats have been on the market for over a year because of the aforementioned issues and that's probably been one of the factors worrying me a bit.

Henry

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Do you have data for that mike or is it a guess? Most Nhavns don't, going by their website

Yup, I've looked at a few of them, got the brochures and get their regular newsletter

One thing that does occur to me on pricing/residuals/white elephants, and it might be a total guess and a wrong one, but there might be coming a time when it makes more sense to buy a 50footer that is newer. If you buy new or nearly new, you will be selling in say 4 years time into a price bracket where the buyer is less sensitive to fuel cost. The older and cheaper the boat becomes the more significant fuel burn becomes as a % of total ownership cost and as % of owner's disposable income. I'm generalising massively- this is a msort of macro economic argument. Hence you would expect high fuel price to hammer the value harder on a 20 yo Princess 50-style boat than a 4 year old one.

Wishful thinking in the extreme. What you're saying is that newer boats will depreciate less than an older ones and that almost defies the law of gravity. A 20yr old Princess 50 footer costs £100k and a new one costs £700k. How can the new one depreciate less after 4yrs? There's no financial justification for buying a new boat over an old one, or indeed any boat at all but as you said before, if you fancy it, just do it. Life's too short

 

[henryf]

I think the point was more that an impass might set in whereby someone able to cover the running costs of a larger boat would want / be able to afford a newer one and so older vessels would languish unsold.

Of course everything has its price. You can often see former millionaire's playthings residing on swinging or mid river moorings without the benefit of shore power and with many of their systems redundant.

There also comes a time when monetary savings are lost to increased upkeep costs, especially when you are paying someone else to do the work rather than doing things yourself.

Ultimately a newer boat will still devalue more than an older boat. As always it's a case of pitching at the right point on the desperation curve when selling.

Henry

 

[Nautical]

Alternatively you could do worse than go for a premium SD brand . look at some of the residuals on say a Fleming 55 or Grand Banks Aleutian etc. While you will pay more initially, the depreciation is only what production builders dream of.

Maybe you pay £1.3m for a 50'+ premium SD which seems a hell of a lot for a mid 50 footer , five years down the line you still be expecting around £1.0m if nicely kept and the right spec, yes £300k loss but take a production mid 50' at around £900k, five years down the line and you will be lucky at £450k ergo £450k loss on what was a cheaper boat to start with, if times are as is, maybe £1/2m loss if it has not got the right badge and a right hassle to sell it.

The older your premium SD becomes the better the numbers, a 20 year old one is still fetching good money compared to what was then the new price. Still staggers me that 10 year old F55's can fetch £600k - £700K, they were only £850k (ish) new back then.

Absolute best bet has to be a 10 year old well kept F55 or its ilk, cheap motoring, and the upside , limited numbers and a steady demand from true blue cruisers which doesn't seem to deminish even when the market is on its bum !

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I think the point was more that an impass might set in whereby someone able to cover the running costs of a larger boat would want / be able to afford a newer one and so older vessels would languish unsold.

Yup, classic example of manlogic used to justify to SWMBO reasoning for buying new boat but surely it would be more logical to suggest that rising fuel costs would encourage buyers to buy cheaper older boats in order to reduce other ownership costs like finance, insurance and depreciation in compensation? Anyway the argument falls down on the fact that the person buying your 4 yr old boat has an 8yr old boat to sell first and if he isn't selling his 8yr old boat because that sector of the market has crashed, he's not buying your 4yr old one. Same as cars really

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The older your premium SD becomes the better the numbers, a 20 year old one is still fetching good money compared to what was then the new price. Still staggers me that 10 year old F55's can fetch £600k - £700K, they were only £850k (ish) new back then.

Thats certainly true but its a supply and demand thing. Fleming have always been careful not to oversupply the market in order to support their 2nd hand market. They know they couldn't sell their premium priced new boats if they were depreciating 50% in 5yrs so they never flood the market with new stock boats as the big production builders do. Yup, a 10yr old F55 is a very sensible buy in financial terms

 

[Whitelighter]

There was indeed an Elling for sale in the Solent (its build documented on the forum afaik) but it has indeed been sold.

I was fortunate to spend a bit of time out on her and I found it to be a fantastic boat - superb deck saloon arrangeent and a cavernous interior. Coped with weather very well and most pleasurable to be on.

 

[Bajansailor]

Most mobo folk seem to have a rather irrational prejudice against power cats, but maybe the time has come re fuel costs rising exponentially to have another look at them, especially the displacement cats.
These beasts can still travel much faster in displacement mode than monohulls of the same length, as the hulls are so much more slender (monohulls might typically have a hull L/B ratio of 3, whereas cats might be 6 - 8 or more).

Here are a few examples (there are lots of others out there, pretty and ugly) :

Dazcats Powercat 15m - http://www.powercats.co.uk/Powercat_15.html
I suppose that this is rather like a power cat version of the new Moody 45, where you either love it or hate it..... I like it. But I do rather like all of Darren Newton's designs......

Fountaine Pajot are now building trawler cats that can still travel much faster than Nordhavns et al of similar length - http://www.catamarans-trawler.com/en/
I would not voluntarily choose the chocolate brown hulls though......

Here are Endeavour power cats in the USA - and yes, I know there is considerable scope for improvement in the styling of these moggies - or is it a case of if they are born ugly there is not much one can do about it?
http://www.endeavourcats.com/

The PDQ 41s have nice accommodation, and look a bit more attractive than the Endeavours (ok, that is not difficult!), and appear to be fairly miserly on fuel, with fairly skinny hulls
http://www.pdqyachts.com/power/pdq41.htm

Has anybody got any favourite power cats to show off?
I remember some years ago Jez posted a link to a rather radical fast assymmetric cat from down under around 60' called an Innovation (I think) - but they seem to have gone bust (I cant find any info on them).......

 

[Spi D]

Most mobo folk seem to have a rather irrational prejudice against power cats, but maybe the time has come re fuel costs rising exponentially to have another look at them, especially the displacement cats.
These beasts can still travel much faster in displacement mode than monohulls of the same length, as the hulls are so much more slender

Tested a few and was genuinely impressed. Extremely spacious and comfortable even at speed in chops. Cuts like knife and never slam into head seas (unless waves are big enough to reach the bottom between hulls).


In a marina that charges the sq. meters used (between poles), spots for cat- or trimarans are rare - and costly. No realistic savings on fuel can pay for the extra cost.