Selling in the Med?

[dgadee]

I now have three boats and thinking of selling the Med based one - a Dehler 37cws in good condition, well updated. Do I bring it back to the UK or sell it in S France after we've explored that area. Anyone have experience? It's pretty small by Med standards and has only one hull.

 

[Tranona]

Is it EU VAT paid? with good paper trail. If it is then sell where it is as time/cost of bringing it back to UK light result in lower net price to you - that assumes you can claim RGR to avoid paying UK VAT.

 

[dgadee]

Is it EU VAT paid? with good paper trail. If it is then sell where it is as time/cost of bringing it back to UK light result in lower net price to you - that assumes you can claim RGR to avoid paying UK VAT.

Yes, I have the Dutch VAT paid details (it was originally a charter boat). It was in the EU on Brexit date and I can also bring it back to UK without VAT costs. Costs of putting it on a lorry are around about £5k. I really don't know if it would sell as easily in the Med. The cat and larger 40 plus footers seem to be the boats that sell.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Yes, I have the Dutch VAT paid details (it was originally a charter boat). It was in the EU on Brexit date and I can also bring it back to UK without VAT costs. Costs of putting it on a lorry are around about £5k. I really don't know if it would sell as easily in the Med. The cat and larger 40 plus footers seem to be the boats that sell.

Sold a Bavaria 36 in Croatia in 3 weeks .... don't underestimate the market for a well-found boat of that size. Not everyone can afford a 40+ footer or the associated running costs. Mine went to a Slovenian family who were more than happy with it. Only issue was the UK registration as they thought it could not be EU VAT paid as it was UK registered. Sorted in the end with a T2L.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, I have the Dutch VAT paid details (it was originally a charter boat). It was in the EU on Brexit date and I can also bring it back to UK without VAT costs. Costs of putting it on a lorry are around about £5k. I really don't know if it would sell as easily in the Med. The cat and larger 40 plus footers seem to be the boats that sell.

Presumably it was in the UK under your ownership before you took it to the Med. That is the only way you can get it back into the UK under RGR without paying VAT. It does not matter where VAT was paid originally, only that you exported it from the UK. Your £5k is on the low side - I paid not much less for a same size boat from San Carles in Spain to UK 14 years ago. Don't forget to add £1k for lifts and mast handling. Considerable potential saving if you truck only to a French channel port unless you find a UK based haulier who can absorb the ferry crossing.

Pretty sure you will find a market in France - they don't all buy big boats and multihulls. Dehler is a well respected brand of boat.

 

[dgadee]

Yes, been in my ownership, bought in Lymington, for 11 years.

 

[Koeketiene]

I now have three boats and thinking of selling the Med based one - a Dehler 37cws in good condition, well updated. Do I bring it back to the UK or sell it in S France after we've explored that area. Anyone have experience? It's pretty small by Med standards and has only one hull.

Don't underestimate the demand for <12m boats in the Med.
Mooring/berth charges are 'not cheap' for >12m boats.

 

[Artic Warrior]

Yes, I have the Dutch VAT paid details (it was originally a charter boat). It was in the EU on Brexit date and I can also bring it back to UK without VAT costs. Costs of putting it on a lorry are around about £5k. I really don't know if it would sell as easily in the Med. The cat and larger 40 plus footers seem to be the boats that sell.

Hi...what enables you to bring it back to uk vat free...and what is the RGR that tranona mentioned

 

[dgadee]

Hi...what enables you to bring it back to uk vat free...and what is the RGR that tranona mentioned

I took it out from the UK and so long as I have continuously owned it, I can return to the UK without VAT liabilities.

Returned Goods Relief..

 

[RupertW]

I took it out from the UK and so long as I have continuously owned it, I can return to the UK without VAT liabilities.

Returned Goods Relief..

Does that apply forever in the UK? I wish it did in the EU as we have had the boat out of the EU since 2019 (as I think the Canaries doesn’t count) so think we’ve lost our Croatian VAT status.

 

[dgadee]

Does that apply forever in the UK? I wish it did in the EU as we have had the boat out of the EU since 2019 (as I think the Canaries doesn’t count) so think we’ve lost our Croatian VAT status.

No idea! But Canaries are in the EU so must count.

 

[st599]

I took it out from the UK and so long as I have continuously owned it, I can return to the UK without VAT liabilities.

Returned Goods Relief..

The RYA website seems to say that you can return it for your personal use, does that include to sell it? And that VAT is due on any betterment you've made whilst away.

Does that apply forever in the UK? I wish it did in the EU as we have had the boat out of the EU since 2019 (as I think the Canaries doesn’t count) so think we’ve lost our Croatian VAT status.

I'd check on the RYA website, from memory HMRC published advice about 6 months before Brexit. Then 14 days before Brexit day, during a COVID lock down in mid winter, said actually the advice is wrong, you have 14 days to get your boat in to the UK if you don't want to pay VAT.

This was later accepted to be impossible as you'd have had to break the law to comply, so the HMRC waived the 3 year RGR rule. The RYA had asked for all those who'd bought in the EU to have it waived, but that was turned down.

 

[st599]

No idea! But Canaries are in the EU so must count.

The Canaries are part of the EU and EU Customs area, but outside of the EU VAT area and EU Excise area.

Probably needs more investigation before making any decisions.

 

[dgadee]

I would expect if you bring it back, you can sell it without VAT implications. That was my original thinking - would it sell easier in the Med or back in the UK. View seems to be Med would be fine, so I'll put it up for sale in Med France. A UK buyer would lose the VAT status.

Another interesting query - I have written to HMRC but received no reply - is the status of my Seawolf which was in Northern Ireland on Brexit day. What status does it now have given that it is in Scotland and has been for 3 years.

 

[dgadee]

The Canaries are part of the EU and EU Customs area, but outside of the EU VAT area and EU Excise area.

Probably needs more investigation before making any decisions.

Didn't realise that but here it is: Canary islands

Not sure that would affect the VAT status of a boat, though, unless it was bought or sold there?

 

[westernman]

Does that apply forever in the UK? I wish it did in the EU as we have had the boat out of the EU since 2019 (as I think the Canaries doesn’t count) so think we’ve lost our Croatian VAT status.

Yes you have. VAT is due on imports into the EU from the Canaries

 

[dgadee]

Yes you have. VAT is due on imports into the EU from the Canaries

But surely not if you sail to the Canaries and then back to mainland Europe (EU VAT land).

 

[westernman]

But surely not if you sail to the Canaries and then back to mainland Europe (EU VAT land).

Only if you sail back again within the time limit for RGR which I think is three years.
Also watch out for a possible trap with respect to RCD II/2013

 

[dgadee]

Only if you sail back again within the time limit for RGR which I think is three years.
Also watch out for a possible trap with respect to RCD II/2013

Are you mixing up UK, GB and EU?

 

[Tranona]

There is a lot of confusing and contradictory information here. The following should clarify. The "rules" are essentially the same for the EU and the UK with one important difference. Boats that leave the customs (VAT) territory potentially lose VAT paid status which in the case of the EU means they may no longer enjoy the status of EU goods which allows the boat to circulate freely and be bought and sold without VAT within the EU. In theory the loss of status is the same in the UK but obviously of less importance. The rules then say that if the boat returns within 3 years in the same ownership and unchanged it regains VAT paid status. In the EU the 3 years may be extended on a case by case basis by customs. In the UK following Brexit and after heavy lobbying the UK removed the 3 year limit completely to reflect the number of UK resident owned boats in the EU that the owners may want to bring back at some point in the future.

This rule is based on the general VAT rules that offer reliefs in certain circumstances - for example a business sending exhibition material abroad and returning it. This is known as Returned Goods Relief and has been in operation since 1992, The EU leaves operation of the rules to individual state customs so inevitably its operation varies from state to state (and probably within states depending on customs office). Essentially to claim relief the owner needs evidence of when the boat left and when it returned plus satisfying the requirement that nothing has been done to the boat that materially enhances its value compared with when it left. Thousands of boats go through this every year, of course mainly on short visits without any drama. In some EU states they are hot on formal customs clearance but in others not so. In the UK there is a formal reporting system since Brexit, but rarely is there a formal inspection of the boat - evidence of following the reporting system is sufficient to claim RGR.

Because RGR is only available to the owner who exported the boat, if it changes ownership outside the EU/UK then VAT paid status is lost and the boat is considered a new import so subject to VAT and certification.

The other relief that can be used to avoid VAT(and certification) is Returning Resident Relief that can apply to anyone who is non resident intending to take up permanent residence in the territory. This relief covers a wide range of personal chattels including pleasure boats and has a range of restrictions relating to existing ownership of the chattel and on selling it once relief is granted and the goods imported. This is a much more formal process and inevitably well scrutinised. Equally the number of people eligible is very small.

Inevitably there will be people who sail in and out of the EU or UK without formally reporting - this has always been the case. For example I know of at least 2 boats still in Poole Harbour having been sailed over from the Channel Islands without paying VAT over 20 years ago. The difficulty with following this approach comes down the line when you try to sell the boat where the "gap" in the history may deter buyers. This is perhaps more important for EU owners where the formal paperwork is far more important. In the UK there are many, particularly older boats with poor paperwork and buyers may well be less concerned but newer and higher value boats do attract more scrutiny from potential buyers.

Hope this helps