NormanS
Well-Known Member
This raises a few other points. Do you think that boats carrying flares should have HAZMAT labels, and should such boats be allowed to be in close proximity to other boats and people? (.....utterly and criminally insane.)
Selling Expired Flares
- Thread starter dolabriform
- Start date
This raises a few other points. Do you think that boats carrying flares should have HAZMAT labels, and should such boats be allowed to be in close proximity to other boats and people? (.....utterly and criminally insane.)
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
Some poor information on the topic of storing and transporting flares going on here. Explosives are hazardous materials and therefore subject to restrictions on carriage. However, there are exemptions to the regulations for transport and storage small quantities of explosives, which is how you’re permitted to store and transport them without placarding the boat or your car.
That said, the reason that most courier companies do not accept them for delivery is that they are seeking to avoid having their drivers undertake hazmat training, which is required if they are transporting even exempt quantities on a commercial basis. Failing to tell a courier company what it is you’re sending is a way round that problem but, to my mind, not a very sensible one. Accidents do happen and for a courier to be involved in an accident without knowing he was carrying hazardous material is not the action of a responsible person.
I know that, anecdotally, folks are of the opinion that out of date flares are fine. However, conspiracy theories apart, the reason for placing an expiration date on them is down to simple science. Over time, the reactive compounds in flares break down. That results in an increased failure to ignite rate, shorter burn times, lower burn temperatures and different colours produced (think pale yellow/orange as opposed to red). If you’re prepared to accept those risks then fine but I’ve got limited space on board and for the small costs involved prefer to keep in date ones on board and dispose of time expired ones.
That said, the reason that most courier companies do not accept them for delivery is that they are seeking to avoid having their drivers undertake hazmat training, which is required if they are transporting even exempt quantities on a commercial basis. Failing to tell a courier company what it is you’re sending is a way round that problem but, to my mind, not a very sensible one. Accidents do happen and for a courier to be involved in an accident without knowing he was carrying hazardous material is not the action of a responsible person.
I know that, anecdotally, folks are of the opinion that out of date flares are fine. However, conspiracy theories apart, the reason for placing an expiration date on them is down to simple science. Over time, the reactive compounds in flares break down. That results in an increased failure to ignite rate, shorter burn times, lower burn temperatures and different colours produced (think pale yellow/orange as opposed to red). If you’re prepared to accept those risks then fine but I’ve got limited space on board and for the small costs involved prefer to keep in date ones on board and dispose of time expired ones.
Talulah
Well-Known Member
Flares are not explosives.
Ohlin Karcher
N/A
To duncan: The risks you mention, consequences of the chemicals in flares 'breaking down' , would, you say, result in the flares not working as well as newer ones, or failing to ignite.
So, fair enough, I agree that using OOD flares may involve a small but unquantifiable possibility of the flares performing below expectations, or not at all. Anecdotally, the red colour gets pale. But also anecdotally, old flares almost always work ok.
However, that's very different to old flares being dangerous as fire or explosion hazards, which you don't mention, and there is no evidence I can find to suggest that old flares are in some way more likely than in-date ones to self-combust, detonate or whatever.
The very occasional one-in -a-million flare, new or old, in-date or not, may have a manufacturing fault which makes it risky, but that isn't because of it being OOD, but for some other, unrelated reason.
So, fair enough, I agree that using OOD flares may involve a small but unquantifiable possibility of the flares performing below expectations, or not at all. Anecdotally, the red colour gets pale. But also anecdotally, old flares almost always work ok.
However, that's very different to old flares being dangerous as fire or explosion hazards, which you don't mention, and there is no evidence I can find to suggest that old flares are in some way more likely than in-date ones to self-combust, detonate or whatever.
The very occasional one-in -a-million flare, new or old, in-date or not, may have a manufacturing fault which makes it risky, but that isn't because of it being OOD, but for some other, unrelated reason.
Lon nan Gruagach
Well-Known Member
This raises a few other points. Do you think that boats carrying flares should have HAZMAT labels, and should such boats be allowed to be in close proximity to other boats and people? (.....utterly and criminally insane.)
Seems like these posts all share a similar topic.. Why is it OK to have flares on a boat but not, unmarked, in a couriers' van?
Its not so much about the flare as the other items that might be being carried. One flare accidentally going off, yeah its a bit of a problem, but when there is a carton of camping gaz next to it, it most certainly gets a whole lot more serious. Maybe the very remote chance of a flare self-igniting is not worth considering even then, but what if it is put in a fire and no one knows it there.
Thats the difference between a courier and a boat.
On a similar line, the local ferry will happily carry "dangerous goods". Customers are required to complete a form (minimal cost to cover admin). However CalMac state that they will only carry one such item at a time.
So it seems significant to consider more than the singular item.
Ohlin Karcher
N/A
Accidentally going off? Self igniting? I don't believe it's ever happened, except in a serious fire.
People assume it must have done, somewhere, somehow.
I very much doubt it.
If anyone can find any evidence, eg official enquiry, inquest, MAIB report, of it ever happening, I'll make a meaningful RNLI donation on top of the usual. Bet nobody can because.. didn't happen.
People assume it must have done, somewhere, somehow.
I very much doubt it.
If anyone can find any evidence, eg official enquiry, inquest, MAIB report, of it ever happening, I'll make a meaningful RNLI donation on top of the usual. Bet nobody can because.. didn't happen.
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, yes they are. Explosives are UN Hazard Class 1. Flares fall into either 1.3 or 1.4, making them explosives for storage, transport and licensing.
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
I don’t mention any risk of exploding OOD flares because that isn’t the major problem with them. The explosion risk of Hazard Groups 1.3 and 1.4 is in any case low, hence their being available to the public.
However, the reason for transport restrictions being in place is to enable the emergency services to identify the hazard and take appropriate steps when dealing with a vehicle carrying explosives if it’s involved in an accident. That’s why vehicles carrying over the exempt limit must be placarded and the drivers must be licensed to transport such materials.
The regulations are also designed to prevent mixed dangerous loads. Vehicles carrying explosives are not permitted to carry any other goods at the same time, nor can you mix inflammable substances with corrosives and so it goes on. The regulations are there to minimise the risk of a road traffic collision leading to a much worse event.
You may consider small quantities of explosives as presenting negligible danger. You are correct in as much as sensible precautions will reduce the chances of any inadvertent firing to virtually nil. However, your courier company cannot take those precautions unless the driver is aware of the contents of the load. Nor can you control what may be loaded next to your package in the van.
For these reasons, I consider evading such regulations is irresponsible.
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ShinyShoe
Well-Known Member
I like your summary. I concur with your conclusion. We regularly get into debates on here about responsibility etc. Think Cheeki, think power boaters showing off and crashing, think paying racers. In all those cases those people think the law doesn't apply to them in their circumstances. In this case there is NO ambiguity. The law applies. That means if something goes wrong (however small the risk) everyone in that supply chain is responsible and can expect the full might of the law:
- the seller who broke the law, and eBay rules
- the market place who failed to implement their own rules despite the items being flagged by multiple users (seriously you flag these as firearms - they didn't even suspend the listing)
- the courier who accepted the goods without adequately checking the contents. (If you've posted a parcel via Royal Mail recently you may have been asked what it's in)
- the buyer, who did so perfectly aware that this was not an authorized route of sale to save themselves a few quid.
The only person who is innocent is the poor self employed courier who is trying to make ends meet while driving round with her 3 year old in a car seat in the car. Or maybe the emergency services who arrive to a seemingly 'normal' car fire (caused not by a flare but some other issue) to be met by a flare or 6 they weren't expecting going off in their faces.
I think the expired things is distracting. If these were in date (brand new or used) it wouldn't make any difference - the supply would remain illegal. As the buyer says the risks are much the same. There may be bits that fatigue with time, vibration, UV etc. But if this was someone saying "I ordered two lots, only need one," I'd be just as concerned - although - I bet the jury in a court would be more sympathetic to the buyer if he was buying in date than expired. They would simply be thinking what plonker buys expired flares. If you are comfortable with expired flares why not buy new and keep them longer.
There seems to be an assumption that if a flare goes off by accident we would know that was the cause of the fire. We would know it's expiry date. And all that would be written up in a report we can cite here. It seems the RNLI lost an ILB to a flare. Yet there was no MAIB investigation. It seems they think they fired it upside down although the crew denies that. It was almost certainly in date as it was on an ILB.
I've yet to see a boat fire and think - they would know if that fire started in the engine room or the locker next to it where they keep the flares. Many don't even float when extinguished. In fact, very few yacht fires seem to make it to MAIB, as they miraculously don't seem to have fatalities.
As for warning signs. You dont need them. You can safely assume a boat on fire has fuel, gas and flares until told otherwise. You wouldn't assume that for a car fire, you know it has fuel. You assume the driver will say if he has a calor cylinder in the boot. That assumes s/he knows. Same for if you were on the way home from the Chandlery you might mention it to the fire guys.
As for the rediculous defence of "Amazon sends gas like this" - doesn't make it right.
Talulah
Well-Known Member
I accept they contain explosive substances but that does not in itself make them explosives. Different acts attach different meanings to explosives. So you have to look at the context.
Lon nan Gruagach
Well-Known Member
from: https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/hazardous-restricted-regulated-materials-policy?id=4335&st=12&pos=1&query=Hazardous,%20restricted,%20or%20regulated%20materials%20policy&intent=hazar&context=DEFAULT_BUYER
from:https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/publications/ADR_2019_vol1_1818953_E.pdf page 288 small quantity limit for exemption from hazardous goods transport regulations: 0
So, in context, you have an item explicitly banned by an auction site's own rules that must be shipped as hazardous goods.