Self taught > years of sailing > then doing RYA courses: worthwhile? discouraging even?

[Adios]

Following on from interesting responses in this thread How did you learn to be such a safe and capable sailor?

I'm wondering how the many self taught and piecemeal taught sailors, after many years of successful sailing, would find the experience of proving themselves to a RYA instructor to do a yachtmaster practical for instance? I guess it would depend a lot on the instructor, if he/she's flexible in accepting varying reasonable methods or if its "the RYA way or the highway". I'm thinking of doing some RYA stuff to open up some opportunities that need proven competence and can imagine I'll fall short on technique. I'm not a proud sort but I can imagine it will likely be disconcerting, probably making me nervous and gradually I'll start cocking everything up and look like my only boating experience was in Hyde Park

What experiences have you had with this?

 

[Praxinoscope]

I was self taught, apart from the theory which I did at evening classes, 10 years after I started sailing and with the requisite hours at sea, I entered for the YM Offshore examination, was deemed competent by the examiner and was awarded a certificate of competence.
I didn’t really notice an absolutist attitude towards the ‘correct RYA’ method, but was questioned along the lines of the RYA syllabus, and the practical tasks followed a similar path, which seems to make sense.

 

[Richard10002]

Having sailed for about 30yrs, and qualifying as an officer in the merchant navy, I did a week of own boat instruction with RYA rusailing in Lagos, Portugal, and passed the exam at the end of the week.

I learned a lot that i didnt know, many different ways of doing things, and felt much more confident on exam day than i would have without the instruction.

Prior to skippering my boat from UK to Portugal, i did an RYA Inland Waterways Helmsmans Course with my wife, to give her a flavour of boat handling, and i learned a lot on this course too.

 

[NealB]

The YM Instructors and Examiners that I've sailed with have all been very widely experienced, and very open to different ways of doing things.

I've not met one who insists that things have to be in any 'approved' RYA way.

I've always learned something from them: a worthwhile experience .... go for it!

(No: I don't have shares in any sea school).

 

[Tranona]

The whole point of competence base assessment is setting the standards rather than be prescriptive about how one acquires the knowledge and skills to demonstrate them. Clearly when there is a structured programme of learning to help acquire the knowledge and skills you would expect the assessment to reflect that. So it would make sense for somebody seeking assessment to be aware of the content of the structured programme so that they are aware of what is expected.

 

[Roberto]

would find the experience of proving themselves to a RYA instructor to do a yachtmaster practical for instance?
...

What experiences have you had with this?

I did this by curiosity, (again) after having read about YM on these fora, I had a week to spare in the Canaries so I took the 5day prep course+ examination, had about 10k miles at the time. Nice/flattering YM instructor said "roberto you do not need me" but I learnt a lot. I really liked the thorough approach, syllabus line by line, these "seamanship rules" presented in such a rational, orderly way.
On one side they have been invaluable in approaching new cruising areas, on the other side should I have decided to always strictly follow this approach there is a number of places I would never have ventured into.

 

[Adios]

should I have decided to always strictly follow this approach there is a number of places I would never have ventured into.

Can you explain that more?

 

[zoidberg]

It's my understanding, and experience, that the RYA/MCA Yachtmaster Qualification Panel is comprised of individuals who are, in the main, vastly experienced yachtsmen and tutors who are ( most of them ) independent of the commercial organisation that is the RYA.

Among their tasks is that of establishing and monitoring a set of standards of knowledge and performance which are reflected in certain 'Certifications'. Note this differs from the concept of 'qualifications'.

The RYA has developed, with Services help, a complex of training programmes which can lead to practical and formal assessments of knowledge/performance, then the award of a 'Certificate'. The content of these programmes is occasionally criticised, but they need to be efficient to instruct and be focussed on the essentials. The expectation is that the 'gaps' can be filled in when opportunity presents e.g. variables in anchoring techniques, boat handling with different rigs, complex DR/tradnav plotting....

There is always a degree of 'to-ing and fro-ing' of emphasis, but my judgement is that The Panel continues to get it about right - most of the time.

 

[Roberto]

Can you explain that more?

I'll try
Most of the YM content is formal, correct application of sailing/navigation rules. Correctly read a chart to X scale, correctly determine secondary port tide heights, correctly compute tidal streams from atlas, correctly identify navigation lights, etc. it's all excellent as long as data are available: you have charts and documents, vessels around you more or less follow the rules, etc.
In some places there are no indications about anything: charts show yourself regularly sailing over 100m high sand dunes, 5-8kt tidal streams with no atlases, fishing boats have no navigation lights -the smell of grilled sardines signals them if you are downwind-, no weather bulletins, unknown anchoring bottoms, etc, in strict prudent seamanship by the rules one should keep well off: the YM path does not give any indication or line of conduct apart from "unsafe, stay away".
Re practical sailing, after having made my MOB recovery I was tempted to say to the examiner "On long passages I am the only one outside, sailing the boat, the family -then permanently seasick wife and 3 ans 6yo daughters- would simply wake up the following morning and see I am not there any more"... I think there may be room for additional lines in the syllabus: MOB takes a lot of space, do not fall overboard a lot less.
It's probably finding one's own personal balance between risk taking and risk avoidance ?
regards r

 

[DFL1010]

I'd say, having had the 'pleasure' of dealing with people who have done it their own way for a long time, that the usefulness of a course would lie not so much on the training provider side but on the person taking the course.

Just as other posts have highlighted that the instructors take a holistic, teleological view of the operation, I think it's also a requirement that the person taking the course at least open their minds to the fact that there are other, potentially better ways of doing a task.

For example, I once had a job of being a PB2 instructor, and we used to have quite a few yacht owners taking the course. Some turned up willing to listen and would understand that driving a rib is different to driving a yacht. Others, not so much: they'd drive it as if it were their own boat, and not surprisingly, it'd go Pete Tong.

Clearly, I'm not saying that one should forget everything one knows, not use one's initiative and experience, or anything. What I am saying however, is that the purpose of a training course is to learn, not to demonstrate one's brilliance (or worse, the uselessness of any other method, regardless of the underlying merit).


Tl;dr: If the person is willing to learn and put aside a bit of ego for a week, then it's a useful way to spend a week.
If not, then you're wasting your own time and money, wasting the instructor's time, and also quite likely having a deleterious effect on other students' education.

 

[rib]

Humm. I went water skiing in a friends boat and loved it. Brought a sealine 195 and went to France from Poole often.. With four kids in nappies. (twins involved). Then i brought bigger sealines up to 38. After a few years I down sized to ribs which I went round the UK on two occasions. Then then thought I would sign up for development programme / zero to hero to get some quals. So I volunteered to start at comp crew level. Finished off being a ymi for 12 years working 45 weeks a year ( I know to much) sailed round UK dozen or more times. Now since 2017 I have been cruising the med... My point is I learnt loads during the courses and not always from the instructors... ?.. Have not taught since 2017. Do I miss it.... Some times.. But not often ???

 

[Adios]

I'd say, having had the 'pleasure' of dealing with people who have done it their own way for a long time, that the usefulness of a course would lie not so much on the training provider side but on the person taking the course.

Just as other posts have highlighted that the instructors take a holistic, teleological view of the operation, I think it's also a requirement that the person taking the course at least open their minds to the fact that there are other, potentially better ways of doing a task.

For example, I once had a job of being a PB2 instructor, and we used to have quite a few yacht owners taking the course. Some turned up willing to listen and would understand that driving a rib is different to driving a yacht. Others, not so much: they'd drive it as if it were their own boat, and not surprisingly, it'd go Pete Tong.

Clearly, I'm not saying that one should forget everything one knows, not use one's initiative and experience, or anything. What I am saying however, is that the purpose of a training course is to learn, not to demonstrate one's brilliance (or worse, the uselessness of any other method, regardless of the underlying merit).


Tl;dr: If the person is willing to learn and put aside a bit of ego for a week, then it's a useful way to spend a week.
If not, then you're wasting your own time and money, wasting the instructor's time, and also quite likely having a deleterious effect on other students' education.

I guess there are 2 types of students, one realises its a course of instruction not a test of pre-existing competence. And the other thinks he just has to prove to the examiner that he can do it and get the ticket like a driving test. Must be annoying to have both types in the same group. Might be worth saying at the beginning that you don't need to see what they can already do, that it will just slow the process down if everyone is doing things their own way, "just follow along with the course and you'll all get the ticket".

 

[[3889]]

I was self taught, apart from the theory which I did at evening classes, 10 years after I started sailing and with the requisite hours at sea, I entered for the YM Offshore examination, was deemed competent by the examiner and was awarded a certificate of competence.
I didn’t really notice an absolutist attitude towards the ‘correct RYA’ method, but was questioned along the lines of the RYA syllabus, and the practical tasks followed a similar path, which seems to make sense.

Same here, just booked a YM exam on my own boat. Examiner was very relaxed about methodology as long as things were done safely. 20 years ago, though, and the RYA have since tightened up a lot on processes for instructors and examiners.

 

[awol]

I wonder if the approach of taking a week's preparation prior to the YM Practical is not devaluing the qualification. Being tutored and cramming the information for just one session of boat and crew handling may not be the best way to produce long-lasting comprehension and competence. My experiences of Day Skippers after their courses leave me less than enthralled by their ability to retain knowledge or have understanding of what they have been taught.

I, as a frugal Scot, just took the YM Practical without any paid-for preparation, though I did re-read my notes from the Shore-based course taken over a decade earlier. What I wanted was confirmation, or otherwise, that I was competent and that my years of carving a groove into the same pieces of water and going into the same harbours and anchorages hadn't produced complacency or bad habits and that my knowledge and problem solving was up to scratch.

As to methods - my crew still rib me about my first principles "running fix" and inability to keep the sails driving during the blind navigation (but I found the buoy!). Basically, ? I did it my way ? and the examiner signed me off.

 

[capnsensible]

I've been fortunate to have coached scores and scores of people for their Yachtmaster Coastal and Offshore practical exams. I've not had one yet that felt that coaching was a waste of time or money. Even those that didn't pass first time.

 

[Adios]

Even those that didn't pass first time.

what do people usually fail on? or is it more often a general feeling of them not being quite ready yet? And the big one - how do people who have been sailing their own boat for years take the rejection? I suppose they'll know if they've cocked things up, and they'll probably known if they were fumbling their way through things and not looking their best. I would worry a bit that under the gaze of an inspector I might start doubting myself and not look as competent as I would normally be. I've only ever sailed solo or skippered with friends who know less so it would be a new experience. But then after a week of training surely I'd have got into my groove by then Do many fail if they did a weeks course first or is it mostly those who go straight to the exam?

 

[wully1]

I’ve been sailing in various small boats for 51 years I’ve just worked out.
I did some tickets in the RN then some RYA and BWSF powerboat stuff after I left. I’ve only crewed on 3 other boats for short day sails. I’ve owned 6 sailboats and sailed most of the western UK and Irish coasts. I learned a lot from my mistakes but didn’t break anything or anyone. (Apart from that one time someone put a rock in front of my keel...)
I seriously considered going down to the S*lent to do a Yachtmaster course in a classroom for a week, boat for a week just so that I had a ticket but binned the idea as it looked like all I’d really learn was how to ID a bunch of dredgers and ships doing stuff in the dark (pointless as all you can see is a mass of deck lights)or to delegate tasks to crews I don’t sail with. (It’s just the two of us)
Im sure I’d have learned a lot, had a laugh and met some good people but it didn’t seem relevant to me.

 

[rotrax]

First Mate and I studied at home using the first class RYA Yachtmaster text book - the one with exercises in it. The practical traing was CC in Menorca then I did DS in the Solent. After our home study First Mate and I took training with Trinity Sailing, she DS and I CS - now changed to Coastal Yachmaster.

We also had two days 'own boat' training with a Hunter 27 OOD we bought a share in.

All the training was excellent and well worth it.

The best experience has been gained by miles on the water though. Real sea time has proved best for us.

 

[benjenbav]

I grew up sailing dinghies, initially taught by my father, then had a succession of larger boats - largely managed single-handed. It was about 30 years in that I thought it would be interesting to find out how this all stacked up in the world of formal learning.

I arranged for a senior YM instructor to spend a day observing my strengths and weaknesses. His assessment was that in the latter category was crew management: perhaps unsurprising given my background.

We then worked together for a few months on that and night nav (again, as a consequence of being largely single-handed, I had tended to stick to day passages). Then I took my YM exam.
I found the formal learning useful and enjoyable. I had happily avoided bumping into rocks for many years on my own, but it was good to take stock of where I was and to work on neglected skills.

 

[awol]

I’ve been sailing in various small boats for 51 years I’ve just worked out.
I did some tickets in the RN then some RYA and BWSF powerboat stuff after I left. I’ve only crewed on 3 other boats for short day sails. I’ve owned 6 sailboats and sailed most of the western UK and Irish coasts. I learned a lot from my mistakes but didn’t break anything or anyone. (Apart from that one time someone put a rock in front of my keel...)
I seriously considered going down to the S*lent to do a Yachtmaster course in a classroom for a week, boat for a week just so that I had a ticket but binned the idea as it looked like all I’d really learn was how to ID a bunch of dredgers and ships doing stuff in the dark (pointless as all you can see is a mass of deck lights)or to delegate tasks to crews I don’t sail with. (It’s just the two of us)
Im sure I’d have learned a lot, had a laugh and met some good people but it didn’t seem relevant to me.

Ye dinnae hae to thole the S*lent fur yer YM. As lang as ye dinnae hae a gaff cutter ye can get tested up here.