Self Steering Gear for Rival 32

CAPTAIN FANTASTIC said:
Norvane : depending on exchange rate: $2,000
Neptune: £1,600
Boovan: (Dutch windvane) Kit: £800; assembled: £1,300
Navik: ??

However, have you considered using "sheet to tiller steering " method?. Some feel that it is even more reliable than wind vane and more sensitive; google it and see it on you tube
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Sheet to tiller works well with no foresail overlap and going to windward - in the OP's place I'd use an electric autopilot and cover its use by sufficient PV panel charging.

I have a a Navik, OK offshore, lethal if the boat surfs (unlikely with the Rival) but very fragile and near its upper limit on that size of boat.

For an effective cheapie, look at the Pacific Light or a Monitor.
 
KenMcCulloch said:
The cheapest is probably MisterVee (google it) but they are commonly criticised as being insufficiently robust for serious use. I don't know how justified that is. The Jester forum may be a good place to ask.
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Please allow me to respond to this.

I am the designer and manufacturer of The Mister Vee self steering systems. I do not make a habit of writing about my products on forums but I do try to read up on what other people write about them.

I know there are some forum posts on the web that mention durability issues with my systems. As far as I can tell all of these forum posts relate to two sets of events in 2006 and 2008.
In 2006 I sponsored Katie Miller. I came to the UK to fit a self steering system to her Corribee for her Challenge 2006 solo circumnavigation of the UK. Her desired departure date was so very early that I had to fit a system that was part prototype and partially from the first production run, the xprmntl series.

In hindsight I was too eager to get "Mr. Vane" into the spotlight, I had not even been able to test that version myself. When I started testing the xprmntl version I found that the safety release that I had designed for the pendulum rudder released too easily, often before hitting 2 knots of boat speed.
By the time I had a suitable solution, Katie was halfway round the UK and had her autopilot working, charging the boats batteries in the marina every night. During her trip Katie never contacted me about any problems but was later quoted on a forum saying "The system wasn't very good." (Using her own words).

But also by that time a Swedish customer had fixed the releasing pendulum rudder himself and was on his way back to Sweden on his Sweden-UK-Sweden solo trip.

The new release mechanism for the pendulum rudder was made available to all customers of the Mr. Vane xprmntl for free and the design is still part of the current systems. The lessons learned from the xprmntl version were used to design the current model of Mr. Vane which came out in 2007.

In 2008 there were (if I recall correctly) three participants in the Jester challenge with a Mr. Vane. One xprmntl, which was only sold in 2006 and 2 with the 2007 model. During the 2008 Jester, a design flaw was discovered by the two sailors with the 2007 model. In short, the system could lock up with the pendulum rudder at the water’s surface and the pushrod (which transfers action from the windvane to the pendulum rudder) stuck in too high a position. This meant that side ways forces could act on the top of the pushrod, which it was not able to deal with. Eventually the top part of the pushrod would break.

That top part has been replaced with a stronger one and the system can no longer lock up the way it did because of a very small modification to the system. Again, this modification was made available to all customers for free but unfortunately I have not been able to reach all of the affected customers. If you own a Mister Vee system that you think is affected, please get in touch.

As a result of these breakages I decided to introduce a very simple 2 part guarantee:
- A Mister Vee self steering system will steer your boat or you will get your money back
- If something breaks within 3 years of purchase, I will replace it for free.

One of my very first customers, the owner of a 5.60 meter Kolibri fitted with a Mr. Vane xprmntl and organiser of the www.smallshipsrace.nl has taken his system apart this winter, for the first time since fitting it to his boat in 2006. All he found was some visual ageing of some exposed plastic parts. Non of the parts had aged or worn in a way that would suggest any kind of failure was going to occur any time soon.

The Mister Vee self steering systems are made with new ways of construction, with the use of modern materials and new ways of manufacturing and distribution. This results in super lightweight systems offering the best performance at very competitive prices. As with everything new, some things may not work as intended. If that were to happen, I will fix it as I have done in the past. If you have a Mr. Vane and experience any problems, please do get in touch so I can resolve it.


Sven Heesterman
Designer and manufacturer of Mister Vee self steering systems
www.windvaneselfsteering.com
 
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>some exposed plastic parts

Given that you sold windvanes without testing properly I would be very wary of buuying one from you. Then I read plastic parts in a wind vane, are you serious? I wouldn't touch a windvane with plastic.
 
KellysEye said:
>some exposed plastic parts

Given that you sold windvanes without testing properly I would be very wary of buuying one from you. Then I read plastic parts in a wind vane, are you serious? I wouldn't touch a windvane with plastic.
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Nearly all wind vanes use special plastic materials nowadays; nothing is wrong with plastic, actually, they perform better than metals in certain cases.
 
KellysEye said:
Given that you sold windvanes without testing properly I would be very wary of buuying one from you.
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The xprmntl version of Mr Vane was sold as a test product at a price that you could not and still can not even get a second hand unit for. Buyers clearly knew what they were getting in to.
Because of this I was able to develop very much quicker than I could have if I had had to do all the testing myself.

I realise that trusting their steering to plastic is not for every one. But in the 50's most people did not trust GRP boats either. But some people did try them...
 
I have a Sea-feather on my Invicta 26
Does the job well


DSCF0555-1.jpg
 
KellysEye said:
>some exposed plastic parts

Given that you sold windvanes without testing properly I would be very wary of buuying one from you. Then I read plastic parts in a wind vane, are you serious? I wouldn't touch a windvane with plastic.
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I think you would be flat out buying a new windvane with out plastic. Hydrovane costs the same as a good secondhand Mercedes but has plastic bearings along with most others.
 
SvenH said:
The xprmntl version of Mr Vane was sold as a test product at a price that you could not and still can not even get a second hand unit for. Buyers clearly knew what they were getting in to.
Because of this I was able to develop very much quicker than I could have if I had had to do all the testing myself.

I realise that trusting their steering to plastic is not for every one. But in the 50's most people did not trust GRP boats either. But some people did try them...
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I take my hat off to you 'Mr V'.
You make a reasonable product, keep everyone informed as you develop and immediatly replace in cases of a fault.
If only all marine product companies were as honest about their product and with the public.

It will probably surprise some 'ostrich's' but some very heavy duty machinery and equipment are made from materials which can come under the umbrella of 'plastic'.
 
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KellysEye said:
>some exposed plastic parts

Given that you sold windvanes without testing properly I would be very wary of buuying one from you. Then I read plastic parts in a wind vane, are you serious? I wouldn't touch a windvane with plastic.
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Then you don't know what you are talking about. Our Navik has steered us many thousand miles - with plastic parts.

- W
 
>with plastic parts

I think you will find it is not plastic.

This is what Hydrovane uses and why:

NEW BOTTOM COLLAR - We think we have solved the problem of the cracking plastic Bottom Collar and worry that the aluminum version will not stand up well over time. The latest is made of PET - a tough plastic - and has two set screws to better fix its position. After all it is only a spacer - no other function - positioned to help locate the right height for the rudder - so the locking pin is easy to insert.

NEW BEARINGS - In 2008 we made two big changes to the bearings:

1.NEW MID BEARING - We discovered that, at speed, the shaft could flex a bit to cause the bottom bearing to crimp and stick - not long enough to be noticeable, unless you are watching for it. The new Mid Bearing made of PTFE solves the sticking - a definite improvement - especially for faster boats with longer shafts.

2.PTFE BOTTOM BEARING - In 2008 we switched to a white PTFE material for the Bottom Bearing - superior bearing material to the prior black Delrin/Acetal version. In 2010 we made it a 'glass filled' PTFE - a bit tougher.

Typically, only the Bottom Bearing wears enough to merit replacement - but when making the switch it is an ideal time to replace/upgrade all 3 bearings.
 
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KellysEye said:
>with plastic parts

I think you will find it is not plastic.

This is what Hydrovane uses and why:

NEW BOTTOM COLLAR - We think we have solved the problem of the cracking plastic Bottom Collar and worry that the aluminum version will not stand up well over time. The latest is made of PET - a tough plastic - and has two set screws to better fix its position. After all it is only a spacer - no other function - positioned to help locate the right height for the rudder - so the locking pin is easy to insert.

NEW BEARINGS - In 2008 we made two big changes to the bearings:

1.NEW MID BEARING - We discovered that, at speed, the shaft could flex a bit to cause the bottom bearing to crimp and stick - not long enough to be noticeable, unless you are watching for it. The new Mid Bearing made of PTFE solves the sticking - a definite improvement - especially for faster boats with longer shafts.

2.PTFE BOTTOM BEARING - In 2008 we switched to a white PTFE material for the Bottom Bearing - superior bearing material to the prior black Delrin/Acetal version. In 2010 we made it a 'glass filled' PTFE - a bit tougher.

Typically, only the Bottom Bearing wears enough to merit replacement - but when making the switch it is an ideal time to replace/upgrade all 3 bearings.
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Yep, they are all plastics.
 
webcraft said:
I'm surprised that you think the Navik is tough enough for a heavy 32-footer like the Rival but I'll take your word for it.

We have sailed our Vega many thousand miles under Navik, but it is not perfect . . . the big disadvantage AFAIAC is the necessity to be completely stationary (hove to) and then grovel about precariously getting the blade down. You also need to go aft to adjust it, stepping over the tiller lines on the way (on our boat at least) - which is a bit precarious in a big sea at night. I did see one boat that had a Navik that had a remote course adjuster made from a flexible drill drive attached to the knurled adjusting nut, and have always meant to try to make one.

- W
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Old fred, but I would just like to suggest modifying one of these might be the answer your looking for:

http://www.divepursuits.com/products/prod/10524/remote-valve-assembly-slob-knob
 
Be wary of buying second hand. Windvanes should be made for the boat size and weight. If you buy the wrong size any undersized vane will be underpowered and understeer and any oversized vane will be overpowered and oversteer, making them useless.

Therefore before buying second hand check with the manufacturer what size sail and rudder is needed for your boat.
 
KellysEye said:
Be wary of buying second hand. Windvanes should be made for the boat size and weight. If you buy the wrong size any undersized vane will be underpowered and understeer and any oversized vane will be overpowered and oversteer, making them useless.

Therefore before buying second hand check with the manufacturer what size sail and rudder is needed for your boat.
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What tosh. For the vast majority of windvane steering systems (i.e. servo-pendulum systems), the vane does not provide power, merely information. Not do most systems have a rudder to be oversized or not. The Windpilot Pacific, for instance, is rated for any sailing vessel up to 60 feet. True, there will be some dimensional variation between different applications (height from waterline to fulcrum, for instance). This can be readily addressed in moving a system from one vessel to another by the substitution of a single part.
 
Its actually interesting to look at a compiled list of all the servo pendulum systems dimensions and ratios. They are pretty much standardised and while they may look different they are surprisingly similar. The old British Clearaway on eBay I mentioned above is almost identical to some of the current crop, ie the Feather. Correctly mounted there should be no problems. The height above the water for the oar pivot is available on all the builders web pages so there is no reason they can not be fitted to all size vessels.
 
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