Self Build Boat Design Companies advice

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KaraMel

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Good afternoon all,

I’m closing in on retirement from service in the Military and now the Police, and want to build my own boat and live aboard permanently and travel around the world.

I have been researching the BR Spray 36 for my needs and then I have started to read negative comments on here.

I am a total novice to boat building however, nothing will cause issues when desire is at the fore.
<apart from money>

Can anyone recommend websites, or even better a type of sail/ cruiser for my partner and I to travel the globe with a solid vessel and a enjoyable livable space.

Be kind as I will be on this forum a lot abstracting your knowledge.

Thanks

Karl
 
The first thing to be absolutely clear on is whether you want to build a boat or to sail and live on one. These are two entirely different activities, essentially mutually exclusive at least for the decade or so that it typically takes for a single person or a couple to build and fit out a liveaboard yacht. I can certainly see the appeal of building, but it's something you would do for its own sake, it's not a rational way to obtain the yacht if sailing is the real goal. Buying a used boat will work out cheaper and infinitely faster.

The next issue, especially in the UK, is finding the site to build on. If you live on a farm or something then great, for most of us it's a real issue. You need space, neighbours who aren't going to complain about noise etc, and it needs to be as near as possible to your home to minimise wasted time on travelling and on small jobs not done because it's not worth the trip. I wouldn't even think about proximity to water as a requirement - the one-off crane and low-loader job in 2028 will be immaterial against the cost and time of the whole build. Note that Doug of SV Seeker moved house specifically to build the boat and this doesn't strike me as unreasonable. Do everything you can to set up the build site for convenience - I've seen one builder who put his workshop on the upper floor of a large barn so that when it came to fitout he could extend the floor out to the boat built next to the building and have level access from joinery bench to deck - climbing up and down for every little adjustment of fit will all add up. I've also thought about digging a pit (with sump drain or pump) to lower the hull into when it comes to interior fit-out and deck work. Also, people have built boats in the open but I would consider it near essential to put up some kind of shed if the site doesn't have a big enough covered area already.

Self-build is less popular than it was in the 70s, and I don't think there are all that many designers actively drawing for it now. Of course, existing designs are still there. Brian who built Odyssey - which is a blog worth reading - bought the plans from Dudley Dix and had some modifications made, so that's one name for you to investigate.

Pete
 
Welcome to the forum.

DIY building of boats that size and type went out of fashion 20 years ago for a number of reasons, principally because it is neither a practical nor economic way of getting a cruising boat. It was popular when there was a severe shortage of boats of that size and in a world where there were no restrictions on building and there was a substantial difference between the cost of materials and a finished boat. This lead to an industry geared up to supplying designs, materials, part complete boats to meet that demand.

This is no longer the case and the market no longer exists, and instead the market is awash (comparatively) with potentially very good boats at a fraction of the price of even the raw materials.

Perhaps reaching retirement is the wrong time to be considering building a boat anyway as realistically a boat of that type would absorb anything from 3 years upwards of hard graft and in reality probably never get finished.

If you seriously want to go long term cruising then first of all both of you learn to sail if only to find out whether you like it, then charter a boat in warm climates to see if you can cope with that - living in confined spaces in higher temperatures. Then you are likely to be in a good position to know what you want out of a boat and can search the market for a suitable boat that will inevitably need some work to prepare for cruising. This is achievable in a couple of years and then you can spend your hard earned retirement cruising rather than grafting to try and build a boat that might never get finished and nobody will want if you give up.

There is a wide range of suitable boats, but suggest you avoid the type you mentioned. Strong on romantics, weak on practicalities - slow, hard physical work and often high maintenance, particularly if home completed.

Suggest you do a lot of reading - the Liveaboard Forum here is a good start, not only for the discussion threads but also for the blogs that will give you insight as to how others went about it and loads of leads into other sources of information. There are a couple of recent threads discussing the negatives and why people fail to achieve their dreams. Treat these as sources of advice, not as negatives as we learn much from the mistakes of others.

Good luck.
 
I totally agree with prv having fitted out a hull I got from some ones else's failed project

I had my boat on a friends farm but it was 30 to 40 minutes from home where my workshop is.

Bruce Roberts spray is a fair design but quite old now but OK for cruising.

The other major decision you need to make is what material you plan to use and are you planning to build from scratch. I as said started from some noe failed project which used to happen quite a lot as the time and money to build the hull and superstructure can take quite some time and you still have only done 1/3 of the project.

I spent some time looking at failed projects until I found one that suited me.

You also have to look at your own skill set in a very critical way. Being and Degreed and apprenticed Engineer I did have the skills for most of my boat but not all that why you must look at you own skill set for the type of build you wish and material you plan to use.


Have a look at the URL in mt sig box to see how my build went that too me from 2005 to August 2009 and I had help from employees and hired help when needed.
 
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As well as hoovering up all the self-build blogs and Youtube series you can find, of which there are many, a couple of books to look at:

Steel Boatbuilding, both volumes, by Thomas Colvin. (Assuming it's steel or perhaps aluminium you have in mind). Aimed about equally at the DIY builder and someone aiming to start a small commercial yard. Quite dated now in many areas (I think anyone trying to follow his commercial-build advice in particular would rapidly end up in trouble in the modern world) but it gives a solid unromanticised insight into the grubby practicalities of building in steel based on many decades' experience - unlike Mr Colvin, most DIYers only build one boat in their lives.

How (Not) To Build A Boat by Jill Dickin Schinas. The back-story of the Mollymawk crew, it's an account of their build rather than specifically trying to instruct you on doing your own but I think it has a lot to teach anyone thinking about it. Note that the "Not" in the title is intended more to say "learn from our mistakes" than "do not build a boat" - though there is a chapter near the end about the importance of properly considering this major life change, complete with cartoon of husband and wife with very different visions in thought bubbles above their heads...

Pete
 
Thanks guys, that was hugely informative and thank you for it. Just to answer some of your points. I retire at 49, so time to build is not an issue. It was the romantic notion of building in slow time and sailing away, but now with Rogers comment regarding skill set, I have none and wanted that to be part of my journey. I ignorantly thought building would be cheaper, but now stand corrected.
These are the reasons I have joined this forum as now, the end goal is satill the same, however, building and sailing of may not be the correct option.
That said, what state of repair would someone like me with zero official skills, but 100% dedication should I be looking at.

Thanks.
 
In general, the Spray type of design is not highly regarded these days, mainly because although it has high initial stability, once that is past it can go over quickly, especially if there is insufficient internal ballast, or the ballast shifts. It is widely thought that this is what killed Slocum himself, though of course that is speculation (he was lost at sea), and his deteriorating mental state must also be taken into account (his last days ashore make sad reading). Furthermore, Slocum was, in his prime, a consummate sailor with years of professional sailing under his belt. I always find his account of his first short voyage in Spray remarkable - he describes entering a harbour and coming alongside under sail, and doing it pretty much perfectly. He ascribed it to luck, but its the sort of luck that only happens to very highly skilled people!
 
Mollymawk was built close to where I got my boat from. It was again a failed project but as was found had big issues in the basic welding of the hull.

There was also time constraintents due to limited visa limitations on the builders that really cut short the real build time and as such had to be launched before the inertial was any where completed.
 
KaraMel said:
Thanks guys, that was hugely informative and thank you for it. Just to answer some of your points. I retire at 49, so time to build is not an issue. It was the romantic notion of building in slow time and sailing away, but now with Rogers comment regarding skill set, I have none and wanted that to be part of my journey. I ignorantly thought building would be cheaper, but now stand corrected.
These are the reasons I have joined this forum as now, the end goal is satill the same, however, building and sailing of may not be the correct option.
That said, what state of repair would someone like me with zero official skills, but 100% dedication should I be looking at.

Thanks.
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I think it's not just the skills, but the wide range of skills required. If building in steel, you need skills in steel fabrication, and to be confident that your skills are good enough to build a strong and sound structure with complex curves. You need excellent skills in carpentry to build the interior; think cabinet making rather than carpentry, really. You need mechanical skills to install an engine and mechanical subsystems such as steering, electrical skills to install an electrical system, even plumbing skills to install a water supply! Electronic skills to install navigational equipment come in handy as well.

Most of us pick up enough of each of these skills to repair an existing structure or system, but few of us have enough of all of them to do a solo building job.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
I think it's not just the skills, but the wide range of skills required. If building in steel, you need skills in steel fabrication, and to be confident that your skills are good enough to build a strong and sound structure with complex curves. You need excellent skills in carpentry to build the interior; think cabinet making rather than carpentry, really. You need mechanical skills to install an engine and mechanical subsystems such as steering, electrical skills to install an electrical system, even plumbing skills to install a water supply! Electronic skills to install navigational equipment come in handy as well.

Most of us pick up enough of each of these skills to repair an existing structure or system, but few of us have enough of all of them to do a solo building job.
Click to expand...

Thank you...
 
"Fools build boats for wise men to sail"

You will plan to spend three years on the build. It will take you ten years.

It will cost two to three times your initial estimate.

There are literally thousands and thousands of boats for sale out there that would make great liveaboards. NB The Roberts Spray is not bad as a marina liveaboard but it sails poorly.

Tell the forum about where you plan to cruise, how you plan to spend your days, how far you will sail every year, will you single hand and will you stay in marinas or live on the hook. Give us an idea of how much you plan to spend on the boat. Do that and you can tap into the collective experience of the forumites.

eg I am in my 18th year as a full time liveaboard mostly in the Caribbean so I have some idea of what works out here and more importantly what doesn't work.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
You need excellent skills in carpentry to build the interior; think cabinet making rather than carpentry, really.
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It does depend what standard of finish you are after. There's nothing to say that a yacht interior has to be a finely-fitted mahogany masterpiece in perfect satin varnish. I've seen some perfectly homely liveaboard interiors in "shabby country cottage" style, and there's a technique I rather like which is built up using tongue-and-groove softwood boards and light-coloured paint, plus the odd bit of oiled hardwood accent. Either would fit very well in a home-built steel yacht and be a lot less demanding on joinery skill than varnished hardwood (and hardwood-veneered ply).

Pete
 
All good advice. Having spent a few years refurbishing Tam Lin I would say that if you buy a boat that needs work then much of it can be done yourself with a minimum of skills and knowledge provided that you ask for advice on here, look on the Internet and buy some essential books and tools.
Specialist jobs can be done by qualified people if you don’t have the skill set or confidence to do them yourself.
It will cost you more than you think and take longer than expected but you might be able to sail in between jobs. You will end up with a boat that you know intimately and which is well prepared to go off in.
 
My circumstances are not too dissimilar to the OPs, except that I stayed in the army until I was kicked out at 55....

First thing I’d say is that actually choosing a boat to live aboard is step 4 or 5 in the process. As I approached retirement age, the sums suggested that I wouldn’t need to find a second career and so could indulge in something different for some years. The question was what to do. Both the Admiral and I had to want to do whatever it was and it had to be affordable.

The Admiral decreed that she wasn’t going to be in UK for a significant birthday, so I was told to find something to do elsewhere. I booked us onto 2 weeks of a sailing course in Corfu, leading to RYA Day Skipper plus VHF certificate. Half way through the second week, we drunkenly declared that we could hack this on a permanent basis.

From that the idea firmed up. Affordability was key in terms of which boat to buy but having set a budget we then spent months trawling the internet and looking over boats, which varied enormously in terms of price, condition and age. We took advice from friends, our instructor in Corfu, brokers (who can be helpful) and this forum. At the same time we had to decide what to do with the house and a host of other domestic problems.

In the end, the advice given by my uncle, who’s lived aboard his boat in Puerto Rico for the past 30 years was key. “Buy the biggest boat you can afford that you feel comfortable managing. Doesn’t matter too much about age or condition: those things are manageable but if the boats too small you won’t enjoy living on it and if it’s too big you won’t enjoy sailing it.” Worked for us.

But I strongly advise against building it yourself, especially as you don’t seem to have the skill set necessary to do the job completely yourself. I know only one couple we’ve met in 9 years of this life who had made their own boat, a steel one of remarkable ruggedness. It wasn’t the first one he’d built either but he’d spent years patiently building the thing before it was finished. He cheerfully explained he’d done it not to save money but because he couldn’t find a manufactured boat that was exactly what he wanted, so he’d had to build it from the ground up. More power to his elbow but without his skill set it’s a none starter and the expensive option to boot.

So, first off learn to sail and make sure the significant other does as well, otherwise it won’t work long term. If you both enjoy it, then look closely at the money side and then start looking at used boats. There are thousands to go at. Enjoy.
 
From previous forum info before you get too far along make sure you really actually like the reality of cruising in a boat,apparently some couples couldn’t stand it after a short while or one of the couple didn’t really like it.
 
duncan99210 said:
But I strongly advise against building it yourself, especially as you don’t seem to have the skill set necessary to do the job completely yourself.
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I too advise against building if your goal is to sail, but I don't think the skill thing is as big an issue as is being made out. I didn't have any specifically relevant skills when we got our first boat, but after refitting that one and then a second, I've picked up everything on AntarcticPilot's list and more, except for large-scale welding and fabrication. I'm never going to build anything bigger than a large dinghy, for all the reasons on this thread, but if I were to do so I'm confident that I have or can learn all the skills required. None of this stuff is rocket science, there's loads of information online, and this forum will always give more advice than you know what to do with, some of which is even useful :p

Pete
 
prv said:
I too advise against building if your goal is to sail, but I don't think the skill thing is as big an issue as is being made out. I didn't have any specifically relevant skills when we got our first boat, but after refitting that one and then a second, I've picked up everything on AntarcticPilot's list and more, except for large-scale welding and fabrication. I'm never going to build anything bigger than a large dinghy, for all the reasons on this thread, but if I were to do so I'm confident that I have or can learn all the skills required. None of this stuff is rocket science, there's loads of information online, and this forum will always give more advice than you know what to do with, some of which is even useful :p

Pete
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As far as I'm concerned, decent quality woodwork IS rocket science - or even harder; I reckon I could hack the science of rockets if I had to! After all, the rocket equation is hardly rocket science ;) The engineering is another matter...
 
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prv said:
I too advise against building if your goal is to sail, but I don't think the skill thing is as big an issue as is being made out. I didn't have any specifically relevant skills when we got our first boat, but after refitting that one and then a second, I've picked up everything on AntarcticPilot's list and more, except for large-scale welding and fabrication. I'm never going to build anything bigger than a large dinghy, for all the reasons on this thread, but if I were to do so I'm confident that I have or can learn all the skills required. None of this stuff is rocket science, there's loads of information online, and this forum will always give more advice than you know what to do with, some of which is even useful :p

Pete
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Agree about acquiring the skills to build a boat is quite possible by just doing it - that is how I learned, building one boat from scratch, a second from a kit starting from bare mouldings and then carrying out major modifications (new keel and rudder, new coachroof, internal refit, new engine etc) to another boat.

If you like that sort of challenge it is great, but hugely time absorbing and as you said earlier very different from actually sailing and cruising. So rare to find people who actually achieve both to the same high standard.

To me, though the appeal of building has receded as the quality and variety of production boats has improved to the point where it is possible to buy a nearly perfect boat economically. So you can shorten the "build" phase of a sailaway project to maybe a couple of years by buying a sound boat and preparing it well. Still get some of the satisfaction of your own work without the time spent on getting the basic structure right.
 
prv said:
It does depend what standard of finish you are after. There's nothing to say that a yacht interior has to be a finely-fitted mahogany masterpiece in perfect satin varnish. I've seen some perfectly homely liveaboard interiors in "shabby country cottage" style, and there's a technique I rather like which is built up using tongue-and-groove softwood boards and light-coloured paint, plus the odd bit of oiled hardwood accent. Either would fit very well in a home-built steel yacht and be a lot less demanding on joinery skill than varnished hardwood (and hardwood-veneered ply).

Pete
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Chacun à son goût! But personally, I find the tongue and groove effect you refer to downright ugly, reminding me of bad 1960s DIY! My Dad did uour kitchen that way ....
 
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