Seldon Bowsprit fitting

[Theshipscat]

Hi just purchased one of these. I have two options for fitting the eye.
Option 1: Behind the bow roller on the deck. Problem I end up with a 35cm of bowsprit extending over the bow.
Option 2: Bolt it to the side of the bow roller. This will give me 60cm which is more than enough. Obviously this changes the forces on the eye, bracket and plate. Instead of being pulled up from the deck it will be pulled side ways. According to seldon they can be fitted to the rail but I can find no examples of this.
Otion 3: return it to the lovely people at Foxes online Chandlery and get the next size up.

Open to suggestions, no it's not made of wood, ok it's not a proper bow sprit in the traditional sense. Just thought I'd say that before the woodies get there.

 

[Seajet]

The sideways load mentioned is obviously worth serious thought; I'm not familiar with your set-up, but I'm sure you have the judgement to know if it's a good idea.

Not sure if it's relevant, but a little example, the only actual failing of the A22 is the forestay tang below deck in the anchor locker; long story short, the builders thought the anchorage point deep inside thick grp in there was 'encapsulated'; it is, right up to the moment a sail is on the forestay and causes side loads, allowing water down the sides of the deck tang and into the structure...

 

[Theshipscat]

Hi A
I'm not too worried about the bow roller bit as the forestay attaches to it anywany and it's built like a brick outhouse.
It's the seldon bit below that worries me. Mind you I can't work out how they are meant to fit to a rail safely.
I was thinking of bolting it on the side of the bowroller?

 

[Norman_E]

I remember that they make a different type of fitting for the thing you illustrate. It is generally called the Jeanneau type, and would bolt to both sides of your bow fitting allowing space for the anchor shank to pass below it. Your next issue will be the cleat that is fitted where you need to fit the back end of the bowsprit fitting. Retracted it will foul the opening of the chain locker. The latter issue has dissuaded me from getting one, though I am thinking of getting my own design made up in stainless steel.

 

[Theshipscat]

Hi
I know the piece you mean but it is specific to jeanneau according to seldon. It's just a pain it's a bank holiday or I'd be asking seldon. The chain lock bit is not a problem it's very easy to withdraw. I will fit one pad eye behind the locker for when the sprit is extended and the other way down the deck so it can be safetly attached out the way when not in use.

 

[Seajet]

Good luck asking Selden !

When I asked - seriously with cash burning in my hand - about a new rig, they wouldn't even quote me unless I could give them the load figures for all the wires.

As it's a 1973 design and Oliver Lee is designing on a cloud now, this would be tricky, and I rather thought it was their part of the deal to work that out; it's not exactly an America's Cup project either.

I've never come across a less helpful outfit; Sailspar were the exact opposite, couldn't do enough to help - no connection.

 

[jackho]

I presume you have purchased the Gennaker Pole complete with what you call the eye??
I have just installed same and the pole is intended to extend (for the 75mm section) from memory max. 700mm from the "eye". It's not intended to be fitted to the rail but fittings can be supplied to store on rail. Most including my own are "off centre" to the bow roller but should not comprise flying your cruising chute.
From your photo you seem to have enough clearance to install behind and to one side of your bow roller and project clear of foward end of the boat to give you good control of your sail. Hope this helps.

 

[Theshipscat]

I presume you have purchased the Gennaker Pole complete with what you call the eye??
I have just installed same and the pole is intended to extend (for the 75mm section) from memory max. 700mm from the "eye". It's not intended to be fitted to the rail but fittings can be supplied to store on rail. Most including my own are "off centre" to the bow roller but should not comprise flying your cruising chute.
From your photo you seem to have enough clearance to install behind and to one side of your bow roller and project clear of foward end of the boat to give you good control of your sail. Hope this helps.

Thanks Jacko
Going by the Seldon instructions: My boat approximately 4 tonnes, Max unsupported length extended around 600mm if I position as you've said I'll be loosing 250mm between the eye/ bracket and the bow, giving me only 350mm of bowsprit whic ain't a lot for £303.
I think I'll just have to return it and go for the next size up which will give me at least a metre off the bow. Cheers

 

[Quandary]

Mine is offset to port and fixed to the deck, the vertical forces on the ring are considerable and I can understand your reluctance to use a sideways fixing. You need the ring fixed as far forward as you can get a strongpoint, with as much as possible behind to the front padeye when extended, so that when extended the leverage is as low as can be managed. Do not be tempted to exceed Seldens figures for the ratio of projection to the supported length unless you are absolutely sure you will never use it in freshening winds. The bend in the sprit when you are trucking is surprising. My foredeck is very fine and thus very crowded and the snapshackle on the Td furler will catch on the sprit ring if the genny halyard is eased too much when furling. On your deck it might be worth considering fabricating a stainless steel mounting plate to match the ring base, bolted over the bow plate, bent down and inward to meet the hull on the outside to allow it to be through bolted there.
If you need help with Selden products or specifications in the UK go to one of their approved rigging companies, I have experience of MRS and Irish Spars and Rigging but I am sure all the others are as helpful and as technically competent, they will have a proven design solution for your problem. The same applies if you need to specify a new rig.

 

[Quandary]

Thanks Jacko
Going by the Seldon instructions: My boat approximately 4 tonnes, Max unsupported length extended around 600mm if I position as you've said I'll be loosing 250mm between the eye/ bracket and the bow, giving me only 350mm of bowsprit whic ain't a lot for £303.
I think I'll just have to return it and go for the next size up which will give me at least a metre off the bow. Cheers

Have you got enough deckspace to do this? check how much room you have as the padeyes will both be a lot further back from the bow. With a metre projection the vertical forces increase substantially demanding a much longer back lever or a massively strong ring fixing. The pole will bend under load but the ring is likely to lift before it breaks.

 

[charles_reed]

Hi just purchased one of these. I have two options for fitting the eye.
Option 1: Behind the bow roller on the deck. Problem I end up with a 35cm of bowsprit extending over the bow.
Option 2: Bolt it to the side of the bow roller. This will give me 60cm which is more than enough. Obviously this changes the forces on the eye, bracket and plate. Instead of being pulled up from the deck it will be pulled side ways. According to seldon they can be fitted to the rail but I can find no examples of this.
Otion 3: return it to the lovely people at Foxes online Chandlery and get the next size up.

Open to suggestions, no it's not made of wood, ok it's not a proper bow sprit in the traditional sense. Just thought I'd say that before the woodies get there.

My experience, in fitting a genniker bowsprit, was the the loads are considerably greater than expected. The first system It tried used a 75mm od tube which snapped the 2nd time it was used. I then moved up to a 90mm od tube which bent, winningly.

I finished up with an A frame in thin-wall 30mm SS tube with dolphin catcher to the waterline, which has proved adequate for the last 6 seasons.

Genniker is 880 ft2 and the foot of the sail is 980mm from the bow roller.

 

[Theshipscat]

I've now spoken to Seldon, who put me through to Allspars. They advised that it's acceptable to mount the ring bracket on the vertical face of the Bow roller. I've asked for an email stating this, just incase.
Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

You already have the forestay fitted like that, and given that the sail load will simply be transferred from one side of the bow fitting to the other, the only load difference will be the tension you wind into the gennaker luff rope. Cant see that being a problem.

 

[Theshipscat]

You already have the forestay fitted like that, and given that the sail load will simply be transferred from one side of the bow fitting to the other, the only load difference will be the tension you wind into the gennaker luff rope. Cant see that being a problem.

The bow roller isn't in question, it's the side way forces on the bracket that worry me.
I received an email yesterday from Seldon stating the bracket isn't suitable for side mounting after having been informed by Allspars via Seldon that it was. Which is really great news as it's now all fitted. Yet another case of people not knowing their product or the products they sell.

 

[Pagetslady]

Hi I fitted mine to the side of the bow roller, and was very happy with it drilled and tapped the holes and fitted, until I used it I was not concerned about the forces on the eye but the pull was not directly up and it was bending the bow roller which did worry me I didnt use it again that way.
I have now had made a 10mm s/s plate which is bolted down to the deck next to and forward of the bow roller it protrudes our over the bow leaving room for the anchor and allows me to have 60cm over hang from the eye this seems to work fine but cost £200
Now I need to get the furler on the cruising chute to furl tightly at the top as well as at the bottom. I will take pictures and add them soon
Mike

 

[exfinnsailor]

The last picture shows the forward mounting deck eye to the side by the stanchion this is a very strong point as it is next to the hull deck joint. The bracket does move and I think I will replace it with a thicker outer plate. It was ordered from Foxs and they ordered all the different ring fittings and I returned the ones that I did not need. Good service from Foxs as usual.

The pole does bend under load but its designed to do this. If you have a look at the wall of the tube its not round inside. I would also assume that it is not any old ali tubing.

 

[Theshipscat]

Interesting pics.
I've just had a Chat with Rich Thorogood from Seldon. He's says " It will probably be alright but it's not designed to be mounted on the side of Bowroller so we can't guarentee what the forces will do to it and it may break in time or snap the bowsprit". I pointed out I had already been told it would be fine by Allspars. This system they have of delegating info to you local supplier is **** if you can get conflicting advice. I now have to look at refitting it and the deck rings. I'm seriously pished off.

 

[FullCircle]

I would make sure.
I have a Jeanneau with a Selden sprit,I chose the largest diameter so I could get a 950mm projection.
If I were you, I would remove the bow roller fitting and get someone like Mr Stainless to fabricate and weld a support bracket to the side of the existing fitting in 4 or 5mm plate.
By the way, my system could not be run straight as the windlass was in the way, so mine is secured slightly off to one side at the rear, which actually puts the tack end dead centre - an unintended bonus. I twisted the circular bracket to suit - no problems.

 

[Theshipscat]

I would make sure.
I have a Jeanneau with a Selden sprit,I chose the largest diameter so I could get a 950mm projection.
If I were you, I would remove the bow roller fitting and get someone like Mr Stainless to fabricate and weld a support bracket to the side of the existing fitting in 4 or 5mm plate.
By the way, my system could not be run straight as the windlass was in the way, so mine is secured slightly off to one side at the rear, which actually puts the tack end dead centre - an unintended bonus. I twisted the circular bracket to suit - no problems.

Not really a possiblity FC. It's part of the structure of the bow. I'm not ripping all that apart to fit a bowsprit. I'm waiting for Neale at Allspars to call me back re his naff advice.

 

[Pinnacle]

I have been wrestling with this problem for some time - and I still dont have a fix.