Seems to be legal but I feel cheated

[syvictoria]

If you are selling a boat and having it shown with all the inventory aboard then I'd expect to take delivery of what was on board at the time unless the agent/vendor has stated quite clearly that x,y and z are not included.

A boat can be for sale for months, or even years, and unless it's on a broker's 'forecourt', I think it's unfair to expect the vendor to stop using the boat and to clear out all their gear. Consequently most sale agreement terms will make allowance for the vendor's 'personal effects' to be excluded from the sale. The question is, is the card deemed to be a personal effect? I personally think so, just as paper charts would be.

 

[xyachtdave]

To the OP: As you say, it's like someone took the lightbulbs with them. Life's too short to lose sleep about it, imho.

Yes, it is easier to turn the other cheek and just enjoy your new boat.....but....

A plotter chip could easily be £200. Asshat behaviour to take it with you and not mention on the inventory. I think the OP is correct in his belief this is not on.

Let's have their details, they won't dare do it again after a 'YBW Investigation'!

 

[jonic]

I would absolutely expect the Genoa sheets to remain unless they had specifically been excluded. As to my mind they would follow the contract which says:

The Vendor agrees to sell and the Purchaser agrees to purchase the above-mentioned vessel free from any fees, debts, liens or encumbrances subject to the terms and conditions of the Agreement for the sum of xxxx
now lying ashore at xxxx
together with all her outfit, gear and equipment but not including stores or the Vendor’s personal effects or as expressly defined in any Schedule hereto.

(The referred to schedule should then refer to the advertised details or an additional inventory)

But chart chips not so, as owners who have bought them often keep them for the next boat and they can be regarded as personal effects. Especially if they have waypoints and routes etc on them.

I doubt a legal case would be successful as the norm would be they would not be included unless on the written inventory or verbally specifically agreed.

 

[xyachtdave]

I would absolutely expect the Genoa sheets to remain unless they had specifically been excluded. As to my mind they would follow the contract which says:

The Vendor agrees to sell and the Purchaser agrees to purchase the above-mentioned vessel free from any fees, debts, liens or encumbrances subject to the terms and conditions of the Agreement for the sum of xxxx
now lying ashore at xxxx
together with all her outfit, gear and equipment but not including stores or the Vendor’s personal effects or as expressly defined in any Schedule hereto.

(The referred to schedule should then refer to the advertised details or an additional inventory)

But chart chips not so, as owners who have bought them often keep them for the next boat and they can be regarded as personal effects. Especially if they have waypoints and routes etc on them.

I doubt a legal case would be successful as the norm would be they would not be included unless on the written inventory or verbally specifically agreed.

As you are the 'main man' of brokerage facts on YBW, I bow to your superior knowledge!

But....surely without a chip the plotter is useless and not as advertised (working) therefore should stay.

 

[prv]

As you are the 'main man' of brokerage facts on YBW, I bow to your superior knowledge!

But....surely without a chip the plotter is useless and not as advertised (working) therefore should stay.

But when you buy a new card for it it magically becomes not-useless again! And it isn't "not working", unless the same could be said of an outboard with no fuel in it. It works as long as you give it what it needs.

Ultimately these things just come down to what is "usual practice", and we've seen enough comments, not to mention a professional's opinion, to show that excluding plotter cards from a sale falls without the bounds of usual practice.

Pete

 

[jonic]

As you are the 'main man' of brokerage facts on YBW, I bow to your superior knowledge!

But....surely without a chip the plotter is useless and not as advertised (working) therefore should stay.

Ahh flattery will get you everywhere!

But generally on a day to day basis I would not expect it to stay. If it does it would be a nice bonus.

It's not compulsory for chartplotters to be sold new complete with map cards so secondhand we would not compel owners to leave them unless they wished to, and expressly included them in the sale (some do but it is a choice).

 

[xyachtdave]

But when you buy a new card for it it magically becomes not-useless again! And it isn't "not working", unless the same could be said of an outboard with no fuel in it. It works as long as you give it what it needs.

Ultimately these things just come down to what is "usual practice", and we've seen enough comments, not to mention a professional's opinion, to show that excluding plotter cards from a sale falls without the bounds of usual practice.

Pete

Yes.... But following that logic you would include a boats diesel fuel, batteries and everything else that's not nailed down.

I am of course wrong and alone (sniff) in my opinion that it's not cricket. :-(

 

[doug748]

It is petty and mean spirited to take the chip.

I note that you say:

"When the owner showed me round the boat, the wide screen Raymarine GPS system had a Navionics chart chip in it. I was given a quick demo."

If this quick demo took place at an early stage, with the boat on the water, and in regualr use with personal effects clearly still on board; I might give him the benefit of the doubt.
If the boat was on the hard and the owner was showing the boat for immediate sale and had perhaps removed other personal items and the ship was tidy for sale and he was clearly in loco of the broker......then I would go after the bugger.

 

[MoodySabre]

Genoa sheets definitely part of the sale! E charts, specifically navionics could be worth £250 or more. There is no legal position I suspect but if the boat was demoed with the charts then i'd want words with the seller. The seller sounds a bit of a ****** to me but thats just a personal opinion.

If you are selling a boat and having it shown with all the inventory aboard then I'd expect to take delivery of what was on board at the time unless the agent/vendor has stated quite clearly that x,y and z are not included.

If your bill of sale says 'as seen' then clearly what you have taken delivery of is not 'as seen'!

My thoughts exactly

 

[Happydaze]

I would expect the chip to be present if it was demonstated to me. If the vendor/broker said i will get a chip to demonstrate that it works then i wouldn't.

But then, i expect beef in beefburgers but it seems that we don't.

 

[sailor211]

When I sold I had a list go what was included. Anything not on the list was not included. If I had listed chart plotter I would have included the chart chip. Especially if I had demonstrated it with chart. Did list how many sheets and warps would be left. Never thought about genoa cars, they are part of the boat. I did not list mast!!

When I bought it was with everything on board excluding personal effects. Flag was taken but log books left. Dinghy was on board but did have any facility for fitting the auto inflate gas bottles so I think the dinghy was swapped. There were a few other things like that, but life is too short and the cost small compared to my refit cost. Difficult to prove unless you have identified and listed everything .


I think as the chart plotter was demonstrated with chip I would send invoice for the replacement. Owner had opportunity to say he was keeping the chip

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I can't decide if it's fair, and I don't know if it's legal. BUT there's a case to be made that it's always worth pushing back a bit. A friend was in exactly this situation and after pleading his case the Chart Card turned up in the post.

 

[Mrs FG]

Having just acquired a new boat (a used one) I have started going through the systems etc.

When the owner showed me round the boat, the wide screen Raymarine GPS system had a Navionics chart chip in it. I was given a quick demo.

Now, I find that there is no chart chip and when I took this up with the broker, he told me that as it was not on the inventory specifically, I have no case to claim for it.

The genoa sheets are not there either (and some other stuff seems to be no longer there as well - but I digress) but in this case the broker says they (the genoa sheets) should be there as you can't use the boat without them, even if they're not listed specifically on the inventory. Doesn't feel wholly consistent to me.

Has anyone else had this? I feel it is like taking the light bulbs from a house, when you move - it may be legal but is it reasonable?

Do you all need to be warned?

IIRC, the standard conveyancing contract says you must leave a light bulb in each fitting - if the contract says this, then not to do so is not illegal, but it is unlawful. In my opinion, the vendor should have left the chip, as otherwise the GPS is unusable - I bet he didn't take the battery out of the EPIRB, for example, and I doubt that was listed separately on the inventory.

I'd always try being non-confrontational at first: writing to the vendor along the lines of "I can't find the chip - did you forget to leave it on board?".

 

[jonic]

Ok. lets look at it another way for a moment.

I went to the chandler today and bought a £1000 chart plotter. The guy demoed it in the shop.

When I got home the £200 chart he used for the demo was not in the plotter.

I checked the spec and it was clearly not included in the written spec as being included. However as he demoed it in the shop with a chart in it I believe it should be mine for free. I never asked him for it and i don't see how you can demo the unit without one but that's beside the point.

I rung them up and they said they don't include charts as they are personal to the user- it depends on the cruising ground and other personal choices so the chart chips are sold separately

Much like a chart table needs charts to be a chart table, the chart table doesn't automatically come with charts either when you buy a boat.

Undeterred I pointed out that if I was buying a house, they would have to leave a £1.50 light bulb (totally unrelated to a boat sale and purchase contract, a chart plotter and a £200 quid chart - but who cares) and I would be going to the small claims court.


Come on guys.....


Best you can do is ask him if it was a mistakenly removed or if it wasn't included. If it's not on the inventory the op didn't buy it.

The sheets however are not personal and should be included.

 

[jonic]

IIRC, the standard conveyancing contract says you must leave a light bulb in each fitting - if the contract says this, then not to do so is not illegal, but it is unlawful. In my opinion, the vendor should have left the chip, as otherwise the GPS is unusable - I bet he didn't take the battery out of the EPIRB, for example, and I doubt that was listed separately on the inventory.

These are not good comparisons. The yacht and it's equipment are second hand goods being conveyed between two private individuals.

If the right sale and purchase contract has been used the contract will have clauses and provision for inventory, warranties and deficiencies.

For example:

)* The Vendor is not selling in the course of a business. The Purchaser, being at liberty to inspect the vessel and satisfy himself as to its condition and specification, any expenses in this connection shall be borne by the Purchaser. All express or implied warranties are hereby excluded and the vessel, its outfit, gear and equipment shall be taken with all defects and faults of description without any allowance or abatement whatsoever;


*Within days after completion of such inspection and/or survey if any defect(s) in the vessel or its machinery, other than those disclosed to the Purchaser in writing prior to signing this agreement, shall have been found or if any defects or deficiencies have been found in any inventory hereto, the Purchaser must advise the Vendor and/or the Broker specifying such defects or deficiencies including a full copy of the survey report


1 PURCHASE PRICE
The Vendor agrees to sell and the Purchaser agrees to purchase the above-mentioned vessel free from any fees, debts, liens or encumbrances subject to the terms and conditions of the Agreement for the sum of
(figures) * say (words)
now lying ashore 0/* afloat 0 at
together with all her outfit, gear and equipment but not including stores or the Vendor’s personal effects or as expressly defined in any Schedule hereto.


If the chart plotter was on the inventory and listed with x2 wide charts of europe and the med and one standard chart of the Irish sea etc then that's a different story.

If it's listed as just chart plotter and there is no mention or description of any charts then that's what was for sale. The charts have remained the sellers personal equipment, much like his shell channel guide, almanac and tide tables etc.

But I find this thread honestly bordering on the petty just for the sake of it. The op has primarily bought a BOAT. I would be more concerned about the lack of sheets!

To the op, unless you have been misled or promised charts then focus on getting a set of sheets on the boat.

 

[Koeketiene]

But I find this thread honestly bordering on the petty just for the sake of it.

One would almost think one had strayed into the Lounge

 

[ytd]

I think if something is on a boat when you are shown it, then it should stay unless it is specifically excluded, eg, personal items.
But don't be too quick to blame the PO. When I sold a boat a few years back I included everything on the inventory. The new owner rang me asking where all the paper charts, outboard and generator were? Seems the broker had removed them from the boat for 'safekeeping' and just forgot to mention it to the new owner.

 

[fireball]

Sorry. Can't fully agree with you here. At the time of demo you would've been told that the charts are sold seperately - and it normally states on the box if charts are included or not.

The op was demod a piece of kit - and there is a clear misinderstanding of what was going to be included with the demod kit - so IMHO it is worth asking the question - especially as genoa sheets have been removed too. It may be they're just removed for storage.

As for charts being personal - I'm not sure I can agree there either - ok, they reflect choice of cruising ground - but that's it - a few waypoints doesn't make it persoanl.

 

[Portofino]

This chip thing I've been there from Sunseeker of all peeps
In 2005 I purchased a 2 y old MoBo brought back from Ibiza to Poole in a part ex deal by the factory
It was refinished .new cushions carpets, fenders ,cups warps fenders sreviced polished etc like new
When igot it to the SOF - no chip
Well it would have had a Ibiza -so no use
Thing is I found out at sea and spent / wasted a day in Antibes finding one that fitted the screen ,they are not a universal fit .
If I had known before I could have sorted it before arrival
The previous owner had bought a bigger SS so I guess used the chip with waypoints ? In that since that would have come without one = paper chart principle? Took it with him
I did not make a fuss because the SS peeps in France were really nice to me as I was a newby I needed them " on board" so to speak , to teach Med mooring,shore power etc etc -which they did under the Azur sky - for no charge they sent a skipper for the first 3 days to show me how the boat worked

 

[dhobyb]

Its not that unusual, mine was missing sheets and fuel (yes he even emptied the fuel tank), gas, all missing......I consider that Genoa sheets to be part of the boats basic equipment, and wonder if the Surveyor should of picked it up, but then my surveyor was a waste of space anyway... So I ended up paying for all to be replaced, and put it down to experience