Second Hand Boat Buyers Conundrum - AWB vs MAB and Seaworthyness

[Tranona]

Well Mr Google turned up this in 10seconds:

http://www.yachtingworld.com/sail-f...techniques-series-part-5-helming-skills-76323

From a Vendee Globe skipper.

http://www.myhanse.com/slamming-hull-strength_topic1893.html

From a marque website.


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...=onepage&q=yacht slamming to windward&f=false

From a published work: Choosing and Buying a Yacht.


Far better to claim Fifth Amendment in these matters or even claim that you boat is so modern, computer designed and made of the dark materials that hydrodynamics has been turned on it's head.
Few will be convinced but at least they may suspend disbelief

Better to recognise that there are no absolutes, and although there is a tendency for flat bottomed hulls to slam, it is not always true and clearly some designs have found a way of minimising if not eliminating it.

It is a matter of observed fact that my old boat slammed, but my new one does not seem to - but maybe I have not been out in conditions where it would be noticeable. However, as I recount above I experienced no slamming going to wind in 20+ knots in a wind over tide, shallow water situation which the old boat was never comfortable with.

 

[Kelpie]

Skinny bolt on keels do not fall off

Spade rudders do not break off (have a look at the construction which explains why)
.

Well obviously these statements are not true (Cheeky Rafiki, Dove II, for starters) so I presume you mean these things don't happen often enough to be statistically significant.
You could use the same argument and sail without a liferaft or flares, yet people generally have these things for peace of mind.
I wouldn't suggest that bolt on keels, saildrives, and spade rudders are all accidents waiting to happen. However given the choice, they are things I prefer not to have, as I see little benefit, and certain downsides which could manifest themselves when the boats they are fitted to get to the kind of age where I might be able to buy them.
But I appear to be in a slightly paranoid minority.

 

[Tranona]

Well obviously these statements are not true (Cheeky Rafiki, Dove II, for starters) so I presume you mean these things don't happen often enough to be statistically significant.
You could use the same argument and sail without a liferaft or flares, yet people generally have these things for peace of mind.
I wouldn't suggest that bolt on keels, saildrives, and spade rudders are all accidents waiting to happen. However given the choice, they are things I prefer not to have, as I see little benefit, and certain downsides which could manifest themselves when the boats they are fitted to get to the kind of age where I might be able to buy them.
But I appear to be in a slightly paranoid minority.

Perhaps I should have qualified it by adding "in normal use". It is not the statistical significance as there are so few examples that means numbers are irrelevant. The individual cases (and there have been rudder stock failures as well) almost always have a logical explanation which if you apply to any situation you might encounter you will realise that "never" is far more appropriate - just as it is with liferafts!.

However liferafts are static and do indeed contribute nothing to everyday experience unless you count that difficult to define "peace of mind" bit. You really don't need that as it is very easy to avoid getting into a situation when you might need it. Like the other failures, need for a liferaft is predictable once you have gone down a particular route.

On the other hand, all the other things you mention do have significant benefits. Sail a well designed keel boat with a spade rudder and you will instantly recognise the benefits of better windward performance. lighter more positive helm, responsive handling under sail and power. If this were not so, why would designers bother to spend so much time and effort designing them? Benefits of saildrives have been covered in detail elsewhere on this thread.

There is no reason why AWBs should not be viable in later years - after all there are 20 and 30 year old examples still giving good service and fetching reasonable prices and if you look at them, many have survived better than the previous generation of boats.

 

[LadyInBed]

I bet that you haven't considered these.
https://www2.best-boats24.net/en/bu...UhLS/F4JogM24TJSgoziKkzic2aCg2KrueVtwXjTt8PkC

 

[Cactus Sailing]

Hello,

I sold my Hurley 22 at the end of last season as it was just not big enough for family sailing. I didn't rush out to buy a new boat straight away as I was busy with a fastnet campaign and some med chartering this season so thought the boat wouldn't get much use, so my plan was to save up another year and buy either at the end of this season or at the start of next.

I want something suitable for coastal work but also want it to be seaworthy with the odd hop across the channel to france or the Channel islands. I want to also be able to take the kids with me aged 3 and 4 so the more stable at sea the better. Over the past 9 months of looking, my preferred choice has constantly changed from:

1. Mid eighties Sadler 29/34 £15k for the 29, £25k for 34
2. Mid eighties Beneteau First 305 on for £20k list price
3. Early 90's Beneteau First 310 on for £22k list price
4. Late 90's/early 00's Sun Odyssey 32/32.2 on for just under £30k
5. Late 90's/early 00's Bavaria 34 on for £35k

As you can see the budget has also been creeping up over time.

I have been reading lots of old threads on the AWB vs MAB relating to the fact that in some peoples eyes the large volume light displacement bav/jen/ben are not particularly seaworthy vessels. I understand all the arguments pros/cons of long keels vs fin keels, living accommodation vs seakindly motion at sea, but surely it is not as simple as that when you start to look at what you can get for your money.

I want the next boat to be a long term boat and don't want to keep changing all the time with the expense of refit and tweaking things you don't like. If I keep the Sadler for 10 years it will be over 40 years old! I am thinking it is too old and will not be worth anything when I come to sell it.

So what boat would you buy with a budget of £25 to 30k suitable for a family with young kids?

I was recently in the same boat so to speak, Family and kids (6&8) all be it my budget was 30-40k, and I loved the classic lines of MAB's but the practicalities (and comfort) attained in a MAB is not comparable to a AWB, and i didn't see that until i went and viewed a few AWBs, and for the same money as a MAB I have a modern rig, pretty enclosed cockpit, and a big wheel at the helm which offers two major benefits with kids

Keeps them firmly in the cockpit
doesn't take their legs out when kids "always listen" to their parents and keep out the way Tacks are also safer

you will also find with some modern (cruiser) AWBs the mainsheet is not in the cockpit, some may argue its less effective but not having your kids tangled up in it, and the cockpit clear is great while out sailing and perhaps something a parent of young kids appreciates more.

don't get me wrong I still see a contessa 32 and think - now that's a nice boat, but as soon as im sat around a table (which I haven't had to erect half an hour ago) with comfy sofas and more storage than I can shake a stick at, and equally when at anchor / or marina I can put the kids to bed in their own cabin without having to play Tetris with sofas and folding table beds their beds are already made, there isn't a toilet in the middle of the fore cabin with a grotty curtain, its separate, with a nice shower i can stand up in, and I can stay up just that bit later with some wine while the kids are asleep in their own cabins, I realise how much I love my AWB

seaworthiness... well for the kind of weather you will happily take your kids in there is no contest between the boats, if we're talking about survival conditions, force 10 in the arctic then I wouldn't have took my kids in the first place, and if im honest i would try and avoid those conditions at all costs, but even so both boats would perform well providing it has the right equipment on board, just look at the amount of AWB's joining the ARC.

when I realised the above ^^ and after looking at boats with mouldy bananas in the keel and my other half said with as much enthusiasm as possible "its alright, and if its what you really want" (secretly I knew it was like when we went camping in Scotland with a river running through our tent - that kind of OK, we survived, the kids wet and crying and we had to leave early, but we wouldn't choose to do it again kind of OK) I snapped up a 1 owner 7yr old Bavaria which looks just like it did when it left the factory (credit to previous owner) and my kids can't wait to go sailing now and it takes up most of our weekends.

I can imagine if I bought the MAB id still be fixing it and/or the crew wouldn't be as enthusiastic to come along sailing and stay on it, and also i can tell you in a force 8 i was more than happy with the kids on board recently in my AWB, it handled wonderfully, the kids loved heeling over and all the waves crashing over the bow sat snugly behind the spray hood (and dry!) with the high sides giving them confidence to sit in the cockpit and best of all - the kids still want to come sailing so that's a huge success in my eyes!

Happy crew = happy skipper.

sad crew = lonely skipper

but yeah i chose AWB, do i regret it.... not a chance.

 

[doug748]

Better to recognise that there are no absolutes, and although there is a tendency for flat bottomed hulls to slam, it is not always true and clearly some designs have found a way of minimising if not eliminating it.

It is a matter of observed fact that my old boat slammed, but my new one does not seem to - but maybe I have not been out in conditions where it would be noticeable. However, as I recount above I experienced no slamming going to wind in 20+ knots in a wind over tide, shallow water situation which the old boat was never comfortable with.

Indeed.

The OP might have been unwise to start talking about MAB / AWBs if he wanted sensible advice. His list is pretty tight, nothing too old, nothing too new.

The nub of the question is, perhaps:

Do I buy a 15 year old smaller boat or a 25 year old boat that is a bit bigger?

I think that he should go for the slightly bigger boat which stands a chance of meeting family needs, and maybe extended cruising, into the future.
.
I don't think the cycle of maintenance is very different between the two, the older boat may need engine attention earlier and the young boat later, but in a ten year ownership most things will generally come around with either boat.

As most people tend to agree.... the key is to buy the best of the chosen type, even if it means paying 5 grand more than the usual run of prices.

 

[Tranona]

He is on the cusp budget/requirements where there really is a clear choice of one or the other as the £20-40k band allows him to buy "big" boats, ie up to 35' of both types. Appreciate he is currently thinking of £30k which limits the AWB choice, but going that extra £5-10k really does open things up.

Currently looking at early 2000s 32-34' with a friend and there are some really good boats around asking £35-40k - just as there were when I looked 2 years ago for my replacement. One thing that I have noticed is that newer S/H boats are much less messed about with than older boats. This I think is mainly because they started out with a higher level of equipment, mostly factory fit rather than suffering add ons from owners.

There is a survey on the Bavaria Help forum trying to identify common problems on owners' boats and although only a small number of responses so far it is remarkable how few faults occur over time - this echos the threads which rarely report much more than niggles, as well as my own experience.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I was recently in the same boat so to speak, Family and kids (6&8) all be it my budget was 30-40k, and I loved the classic lines of MAB's but the practicalities (and comfort) attained in a MAB is not comparable to a AWB, and i didn't see that until i went and viewed a few AWBs, and for the same money as a MAB I have a modern rig, pretty enclosed cockpit, and a big wheel at the helm

Not sure which MABs you looked at, but there are many that are more than comparable with a modern boat. My 80's Westerly has two separate (permanent) double cabins, each with full hanging wardrobes, separate heads with hot and cold water and shower, fridge, cooker with oven, blown air diesel heating, electric windlass, solar power, large saloon with permanent dining table and two, four seater sofas that convert to bunks in seconds. Cost, half the price of a cheap AWB

 

[PaulRainbow]

There is a survey on the Bavaria Help forum trying to identify common problems on owners' boats and although only a small number of responses so far it is remarkable how few faults occur over time - this echos the threads which rarely report much more than niggles, as well as my own experience.

Problem with bottom of the market AWBs, such as Bavarias, is that thye take he All White bit to the extreme, being aboard one is a very similar experience to sitting in the dentist waiting room. I like some nice traditional wood and decent upholstery in my boats, which means moving much more upmarket, where the prices you mention simply don't exist.

 

[Tranona]

Problem with bottom of the market AWBs, such as Bavarias, is that thye take he All White bit to the extreme, being aboard one is a very similar experience to sitting in the dentist waiting room. I like some nice traditional wood and decent upholstery in my boats, which means moving much more upmarket, where the prices you mention simply don't exist.

What absolute rubbish. Have you ever been in an early 2000s Bavaria? If there is a criticism it is there is too much (dark) wood and dark blue upholstery. A white deckhead that is a mixture of moulding and vinyl covered panels, very well attached (and removable) so no droopy Westerly style headlinings that cost a fortune to replace. Latest models use lighter wood finishes - teak, oak, mahogany to choice with a wide choice of fabrics as well as a choice of floor finishes.

Your comments suggest that you really do not have a clue - at least about Bavarias, which is strange as there are hundreds around to disprove what you are saying. Maybe you are thinking of another brand, in which case make sure you use the right name for it.

 

[PaulRainbow]

What absolute rubbish. Have you ever been in an early 2000s Bavaria? If there is a criticism it is there is too much (dark) wood and dark blue upholstery. A white deckhead that is a mixture of moulding and vinyl covered panels, very well attached (and removable) so no droopy Westerly style headlinings that cost a fortune to replace. Latest models use lighter wood finishes - teak, oak, mahogany to choice with a wide choice of fabrics as well as a choice of floor finishes.

Your comments suggest that you really do not have a clue - at least about Bavarias, which is strange as there are hundreds around to disprove what you are saying. Maybe you are thinking of another brand, in which case make sure you use the right name for it.

Nope, was thinking about Bavaria. Been onboard a few and didn't like them, sorry.

Oh, took my removable deckhead panels down last week. Not because they were droopy, they were securely attached. I fitted some nice remote controlled, dimmable, LEDs and had to replace the vinyl to get rid of redundant holes from previous light fittings. Total cost to replace the whole lot was about £160, not a "fortune" in my book.

 

[Cactus Sailing]

Problem with bottom of the market AWBs, such as Bavarias, is that thye take he All White bit to the extreme, being aboard one is a very similar experience to sitting in the dentist waiting room. I like some nice traditional wood and decent upholstery in my boats, which means moving much more upmarket, where the prices you mention simply don't exist.

plenty of wood in mine, wood on deck too don't know which Bavaria you've been in.

 

[lw395]

I quite like white deckheads.
It's normal to have a white ceiling on land, unless it's a Courage pub, so why not afloat?

 

[PaulRainbow]

I quite like white deckheads.
It's normal to have a white ceiling on land, unless it's a Courage pub, so why not afloat?

I like them too, it's just the plasticy ones that look a bit like a cheap PVC conservatory that don't do it for me.

If i was buying new, or nearly new, i'd go for something a bit more "quality". Rather than have a new PVC conservatory i'd prefer a used hardwood one.

 

[Cactus Sailing]

I quite like white deckheads.
It's normal to have a white ceiling on land, unless it's a Courage pub, so why not afloat?

yeah too much wood and you'll start shouting Arrrrgggghhhh as your boat turns into a galleon

ahhaarrrr

 

[Tranona]

Nope, was thinking about Bavaria. Been onboard a few and didn't like them, sorry.

Well perhaps you are blind as if you have been in "a few" you will know that they major on wood interiors. Don't care if you don't like them, but at least be truthful. Perhaps you can post pictures of these mythical beasts to illustrate your claim.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Well perhaps you are blind as if you have been in "a few" you will know that they major on wood interiors. Don't care if you don't like them, but at least be truthful. Perhaps you can post pictures of these mythical beasts to illustrate your claim.

Didn't take any pictures, wasn't impressed enough to want any, sorry.

I didn't like the plastic feel and the cheap looking upholstery, amonst other things, but if you like your boat that's fine. We don't all like the same things. I'd just have something a little (lot) more upmarket if i was spending £100k + on a boat.

 

[Tranona]

Didn't take any pictures, wasn't impressed enough to want any, sorry.

I didn't like the plastic feel and the cheap looking upholstery, amonst other things, but if you like your boat that's fine. We don't all like the same things. I'd just have something a little (lot) more upmarket if i was spending £100k + on a boat.

The OP is spending £30k+ and he has a choice of a wide range of early 2000s which I repeat are not "plasticky" but full of real wood - at least if he is looking at Bavarias.

Seems you are not in a position to pay £100k for a boat so how can you know what you would buy if you were actually in a position to do so?

 

[pvb]

If i was buying new, or nearly new, i'd go for something a bit more "quality". Rather than have a new PVC conservatory i'd prefer a used hardwood one.

Unfortunately, all the cheap £100K+ AWBs have used moulded white fibreglass roof liners for some years, so you'd need to spend a lot more to get something more to your liking.

 

[bitbaltic]

Seems you are not in a position to pay £100k for a boat so how can you know what you would buy if you were actually in a position to do so?

That's a pretty silly comment. We all spend time making value decisions about sums of money beyond our personal wealth. The economic manifestos of political parties, for a start, would be pointless. Should no-one have a view on footballers salaries? saying "you don't know if you can't afford it" is a pretty bad form of snobbery and I'm sure you didn't mean to give that impression.