Seamaster Sailer or Westerly Pageant

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marqueemoon

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Hello everyone. A great forum I have been lurking for a while and now would like some advice if possible.

I am pretty new to sailing and looking to buy a solid boat for learning on in Chichester Harbour/ Solent (where I live so no choice!). I have seen two boats that I like, in good condition, but with a big price gap.

Seamaster Sailer 23 for about £6000 and a Westerly Pageant for asked for £12000. Both boats look good but the Westerly is superior, with newish engine almost unused, roomier etc...the Seamaster is well looked after on the face of it, but I can't stand up straight in it!

Both boats are bilge keels so suit the area. Is it worth spending the extra? (I would attempt to knock a grand off the price of the Westerly at least) - which boat is best at sea and best for a new sailer?

I know there are loads of other boats out there available in my price range but when do you stop looking? I have seen some real dodgy boats with rusting engines, mouldy everything and uninterested brokers. Now I have a choice that I would be happy with if either had come along separately. One plus of the Westerly is that it may allow a mooring transfer - although that is not certain.

All advice welcome, thanks.
 
12k is far too much for a Pageant IMHO. Make very much lower offer.
Its a competant boat though. My late skipper started off with one and saw quite a bit of the Channel Islands and The NW french coast before trading uo to a Berwick. His was a very early one with a Vire 2 stroke petrol engine.
 
Perhaps not a terribly useful answer but we started sailing with a Westerly Warwick, the smaller brother of the Pageant. She had standing headroom and was a very seaworthy boat. We went on a cruise in company with similar sized (21 foot) boats such as Seals and trailed the pack until the wind got up to a 4-5 when they decided enough was enough and we started to have fun and ended up going from Portchester to Weymouth in complete comfort - so a solid boat, seaworthy but needs a breeze to get going. Remember you have an expert locally in Trafalgar Yacht Services in Fareham who are Westerly specialists. Don't know the other boat though
 
Thanks for the replies. I know the price looks too high, not seen another for sale near it. It is in good condition and is a very late model and the engine is excellent by the looks of it. An equally well kept boat at a lesser price would be better, but how much is this boat's superiority worth over the same, but lesser, boat?

Saw a Vega 27 at the same time for the same price (long keel) which did not seem to be as well kept in all respects.

This buying is difficult unless you know exactly what you want and what it is worth
 
I have had a Pageant for a year which I bought after a years research. I have about 5yrs sailing experience and a young family.
This was my first 'yacht' having enjoyed a bit of dinghy sailing.
I sail in NE (Scotoland) and have had a great summer and better winter with the boat. There is an active and very knowledgeable and helpful association as well as the incomparable Trafalger Yachts for spares and advice.
12k is deifinitely too much. 5oo ish Pageants were built and there is always one for sale. A late 70's all wood interior with replaced engine/ sails etc should cost 9,500 tops, I watch prices really carefully. Mine was immaculate, original engine etc for 7,250. That's a big price difference from your 12k. Whatever boat you buy you will want or need to spend money inc survey, insurance (cost 100 quid for a westerly), mooring and bits and bobs. It adds up quickly so don't be impetuous.Also, if you need a survey, Nick Vass is a gentleman and great for westerleys.
If you want email me and I'll let you know more.
Its great, forgiving, spacious, very well built...top boat for about 8/9k but a bad buy at 12.
 
The Pageant is a great boat but as Vics says, £12K is far too much (even if it is one of the later ones with more wood inside).
My Pageant has a new engine & two new sails and I reckon the most I'd get for it is a little under £9K.
I would recommend looking out for one that has been re-engined, but not at £12k.
 
Poor sod's trying to recover the cost of re-engining I suspect, however, it doesn't work like that. Offer 8k and see if he comes back with a counter offer. But have a clear idea of the max you are prepared to pay.
 
Welcome to the real world of boat buying! Of the two, the Westerly is much the better boat. However the price is OTT (I assume it is Sanderling you are looking at). Suggest you go to Yachtworld.com and use the advance search function under Boats and you will get up about 10 Pageants, ranging from under £6k to £9k. I can understand why the owner of Sanderling wants £12k - the Beta engine would have hit his pocket money by about £3.5k, new upholstery £1k etc etc. However £12k is similar condition 26ft Centaur territory.

If you want a Pageant, and it is a good place to start, this is probably the best, but at £9-10k, not 12!

The Westerly Owners Association website www.westery-owners.co.uk has useful information on the boat

Good luck!
 
Really good advice about the price and confirmation that the boat is worth buying. I think the owner may be trying to get back his investment rather than being realistic about price but maybe he will be stubborn. If so you have confirmed that I must not be sucked into paying too much.

It is coincidence that the 2 boats I am interested in were both designed by the same man. Inside they are so different but I liked the Seamaster's old fashioned wooden claustrophobia, like being in a train 30 years ago with separate compartments, and a full oven too! Was that original?
 
You are right Tranona and I don't think the seller will get his price, not from me anyway. I had already looked at yachtsnet where their estimate of max price is 8000 so had thought a couple of grand for a newish engine might be normal - but now I know it doesn't work like that!

I think I will make an offer and see what happens.
 
I have always believed that once you have decided what sort of boat you want it is worth looking for the very best example around, and paying a bit more if necessary to get it, rather than buying tired and spending money and time fixing it. You always end up spending more time and money than you thought on renovation projects, and the good boat can be cheaper in the end. Nevertheless 12K is very toppy for a Pageant.

I don't know the particular Pageant you are talking about, but a new Beta is a big big plus, compared to a 30 year old Volvo - longlived though those old heavy-flywheel Volvos were. Typically £4000/£5,000+ to have a new engine put in if you bought an older one and it really died.
 
I have found another Pageant 23 at around £8000 (the boat is 6 years older than the other one) with an almost unused Volvo 10hp egine (2005) but haven't seen it yet. If the boat is like the owner it will be a gem!

Off to see it tomorrow - very excited
 
Many miles and many great anchorages in a Pageant /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif A huge amount of room inside for the length and a secure cockpit. Not good to windward (surprise surprise!). As others have said £12k is way too high, even if it does have a new engine. Excellent examples can be had for £8k-ish.

Enjoy /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
We sailed a seamaster 23 (centreboard) for about 10 years (1970s). Very happy with her, sailed OK, used her in the Solent and crossed the channel for family holidays in Normandy. Low maintenance costs.
 
If you are still trying to decide, you might be interested to know that according to the Seamaster web site ....
Quote <
The Seamaster Sailer 23 was featured in the July 2001 issue of Sailing Today. They compared it with the Pageant and several other boats of similar size and concluded:
"Like the Pageant, a Laurent Giles design, with similar accommodation at a slightly lower price." They gave a guide price of about £6,500 +/- £1,500.
Quote >

Sounds like you don't have the 'slightly' lower price.

I own a Seamaster 23 as a first yacht after dinghy sailing too but I don't know anything about the Pageant.

One thing I will say is that buying an old yacht has been a great way of learning. We have an archaic engine in ours and I have had to learn the fundamentals of single stroke engines. On previous charter exoerience the engine was always just a shiny metal object that I peered at oince a day in compete ignorance.

If you don't see this yacht as a long term commitment then a cheaper option is a great way to discover what you like / dislike before you trade up.

My Seamaster has made me realise just what is important to me and what I will consider essential in the next yacht that I buy.

Your 6,000 is a big difference. If you are going to spend 12,000, you could probably pick up an excellent hull that you could sail for 6000 and spend the other 6000 on a complete refit of sails, engine, rigging, electronics, etc.

Not only would end up with a very well equipped boat set up just the way you want but you would come out the other end of the project with a lot of knowledge.

Personally, if I had your budget, I would look for a nice Elizabethan.

Good luck with your purchase / sailing.

Rav.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I have had to learn the fundamentals of single stroke engines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two stroke and four stroke I have heard of, but single stroke?

Welcome to the forum. by the way. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Both boat models are excellent sea boats and will look after you, neither will ever win any race as they are plodders under engine and sail.

The Pageant as you have found has more room than the Seamaster, being more small family orientated.

As to pricing - both are IMHO too high, the Pageant painfully overpriced. As others say - probably trying to recoup engine cost. My personal view .... max I would consider for Seamaster ~ 5.5K, Pageant ~7.5K - and would have top be in top condition for me to consider that. (Sorry to owners out there - but they are old boats now and market is not what it used to be ... ).

There are other boats as well ... Mirage, Cobra, Sunrider, Searider etc. that can tick similar boxes ....

Another has mentioned Elizabethan ... sorry but in the size range OP is looking that is not really a contender, a) no standing headroom, b) long keel. Nice boats - but .....

As to a Vega - Oh No !! Not a boat for a new person to boating, long-keeled and a ba****d to motor astern, for it's size cramped accoms.
 
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