sea trial, asked to pay for a skipper??

[ozzie]

We are in negotiations to buy a new boat, a Cranchi Zaffiro 34. Only problem is it on the non tidal section of the Thames. I have asked about a sea trial, and have been told that we would need a delivery skipper to take her down to the tidal area, a whole day for the return trip. The total cost for this with the skippers expenses is going to be in the region of £400. I have not come across this before, so my question is should I be paying the skipper or should the vendor pick up the bill??

 

[Whitelighter]

Generally you are expected to cover the costs of the seatrial.

Its not unusual for a skipper to go if the owner cant and the broker doesn't hold the correct certs. £400 is quite steep for a skipper for the day, though it does depend on his expenses. Id have thought £200 was closer to the norm, perhaps £250.

There are skippers who do it for less.

 

[omega2]

Where is the boat? and how far is to Wandsworth bridge,

http://www.rib.net/forum/f40/whats-the-speed-limit-on-the-thames-and-where-can-i-launch-8971.html

 

[jrudge]

I bought a Cranchi from Penton Hook. Unofficially we went fast near Thorpe Park , but of course you do not get more than 30 secs WOT time.

The thames now has speed limits all the way down past Tower Bridge - this changed about 6 years ago. I used to keep mine in Brentford Dock, and even without the limit they used to pull you all the time below Wandsworth.

I agree the punter meets the cost of the trial ( not that i would dare ask if i were selling a boat!).

The snag here is the there owner has chosen to keep a planing boat that will need decent time at WOT in an area where this can't be achieved without a long transit. To me making you pay is not reasonable. Your actual time on the boat for the trial is what - 30 mins, 45?

Has it been surveyed yet? If it is your intention to do so pre trial I suggest your position is I will survey it. I here you re the cost of a skipper, but it is not my issue you have chosen to sell a performance boat miles inland. I will contribute £100 to cover my time / fuel on board - the rest is down to to.

Bear in mind a Cranchi in the UK is VERY difficult to sell - it is a med boat. Mine was on the market for 2 years with not one enquiry ( it was the cheapest). I PX d it via Essex ( they sold it in 2 weeks - its their business). I would imagine that given the make of boat and the time of year the cards are well stacked in your favour to negotiate price and the sea trail aspect.

 

[Whitelighter]

RE: Cranchi,

Correct me if im wrong but I think yours was the 33 Endurance? That is all cockpit no cabin. The Zaffiro 34 is probably the most popular Cranchi in northern Europe and no where near as hard a sell as the big day boats. Actually sold new in pretty good numbers and are always reasonably in demand

 

[volvopaul]

We are in negotiations to buy a new boat, a Cranchi Zaffiro 34. Only problem is it on the non tidal section of the Thames. I have asked about a sea trial, and have been told that we would need a delivery skipper to take her down to the tidal area, a whole day for the return trip. The total cost for this with the skippers expenses is going to be in the region of £400. I have not come across this before, so my question is should I be paying the skipper or should the vendor pick up the bill??

Yes it's the buyers tab, imagine the vendor paid out then you cried off.

Better to have the whole lot inspected as before then hold back an amount of money until the boats been launched at your sea area and then tested, if all is satisfying you pay the balance to the broker/ vendor.

 

[vjmehra]

We are in negotiations to buy a new boat, a Cranchi Zaffiro 34. Only problem is it on the non tidal section of the Thames. I have asked about a sea trial, and have been told that we would need a delivery skipper to take her down to the tidal area, a whole day for the return trip. The total cost for this with the skippers expenses is going to be in the region of £400. I have not come across this before, so my question is should I be paying the skipper or should the vendor pick up the bill??

There's a thread on this very subject on the sailing forum at the moment.

The consensus is that the buyer pays, however in this market I'd always say you have a choice.

If you decide to go ahead with the purchase then I would assume the trial cost would be deducted from the final cost, but maybe not if you didn't. That said if anything went wrong on the trial I wouldn't expect to pay!

 

[alt]

Bear in mind a Cranchi in the UK is VERY difficult to sell - it is a med boat. Mine was on the market for 2 years with not one enquiry ( it was the cheapest). I PX d it via Essex ( they sold it in 2 weeks - its their business). I would imagine that given the make of boat and the time of year the cards are well stacked in your favour to negotiate price and the sea trail aspect.

RE: Cranchi,

Correct me if im wrong but I think yours was the 33 Endurance? That is all cockpit no cabin. The Zaffiro 34 is probably the most popular Cranchi in northern Europe and no where near as hard a sell as the big day boats. Actually sold new in pretty good numbers and are always reasonably in demand

What Whitelighter said. 'Cranchi' is NOT hard to sell in UK / IRL... My Smeraldo 37 has the same lay-out as any Sealine / Fairline etc. of similar size - huge cockpit with seating for about 12, plenty of table space for dinners etc. (we had 12 for dinner one night!) and no bathing platform. The Zaffiro 34 is exact same, albeit smaller.

Your endurance is a completely different kettle of fish... even down below it's completely different.

When I put my Smeraldo up for sale to 'test the water', I had plenty of interest. Infact a guy wanted to come over from the UK (I apologised for wasting his time phoning me, it was simply a tester to get an idea for possible value)

-EDIT- OP, btw, if you have any queries re. Z34, get in touch, I owned one So long as it has an aftermarket canopy, I LOVE them... hence why I upgraded to her bigger sister, the Smeraldo 37 (Have it coming on 3 years now and love it apart from the fact that i'm getting the itch for a fly-bridge.... would it be of interest to you?)

 

[benjenbav]

If negotiations are ongoing then I would suggest the OP offers whatever seems right: personally I'd offer to pay and stipulate that the price was proportionately reduced if the sale completes.

If there's already a contract the devil will be in the detail, of course.

 

[ozzie]

The boat is near Penton Hook, dont think we could chance opening it up there. We decided to go for a Zaffiro after spotting one for sale in the marina- incidentally that one sold in 5 days with just a sign in the window! We had agreed on a price taking into account both engines and drives havent been serviced this year. There is a lot of play in the stering helm, not left to right but front to back - feels as if the wheel will come off. Got a price today of £635 plus Vat. Owner doesnt see this as a problem, so cost would be down to us.Costs are adding up making our other choice tempting. A Beneteau Monte Carlo 37 hard top. Any views on this boat??

 

[henryf]

As has been said already selling a planing motorboat on a speed restricted inland waterway is definitely going to cause you problems. Would you buy one and the first time it gets opened up properly is when you own it? It won't have been used properly for a long time potentially. Overheating, pressure related problems, even just the strain on components.

At tick over you could stick an engine together with glue and it would be ok. 20 minutes up on the plane is a very different issue.

If you're buying off a respectable dealer who warrants the boat it isn't so much of a problem. If things start going wrong they are his (or her) problems not yours. A broker draws a line once you've transferred your money and walks off into the sunset.

Henry

 

[alt]

A Beneteau Monte Carlo 37 hard top. Any views on this boat??

Spent a week on one. Nice boat... infact, I loved it. But, (imho) the finish is not a patch on the Cranchi. The Cranchi feels like... a boat, whereas the Monte Carlo felt like someone went to IKEA and stuck a load of bits together.

Note I am talking about the cosmetics only, can't speak about the mechanicals. I do know that the Monte Carlo 37 I was on had D series engines which gave the owner grief, as did the out-drives.

Personally, i'd go for the KAD300's - I don't care if they use a bit more fuel / smoke a little more... I love them!!

 

[Whitelighter]

MC37 is a great boat and the airstep hull works really really well.

D series engines, imo much better than KAD series. The drives, well they had some issues but if you look after them they are fine. Check the rams and the hoses as these perish and cost a fair chunk to repair/replace. Interior is modern light wood - I get the Ikea reference (though they do sell loads of furniture round the world so I guess someone must like it). The aft cabin is an interesting layout - Longitudinal and in the middle of the boat. I rather liked it, though the saloon is very small. You arent able to eat 4 round the table for dinner and the cockpit is much better for this. Great in the med, dunno about a UK summer

 

[alt]

MC37 is a great boat and the airstep hull works really really well.

D series engines, imo much better than KAD series. The drives, well they had some issues but if you look after them they are fine. Check the rams and the hoses as these perish and cost a fair chunk to repair/replace. Interior is modern light wood - I get the Ikea reference (though they do sell loads of furniture round the world so I guess someone must like it). The aft cabin is an interesting layout - Longitudinal and in the middle of the boat. I rather liked it, though the saloon is very small. You arent able to eat 4 round the table for dinner and the cockpit is much better for this. Great in the med, dunno about a UK summer

In fairness with my reference to D series, it's a fear of having to get a dealer down.... nearest dealer is 140 miles away and about 500 euro to plug in a diagnostic (as my neighbour has recently found out). If diagnostics were openly available for D series, i'd have one in the morning.

Saloon is quite small alright, but tbh not much time spent down here... i'd never allow anyone eat down below in the saloon... have them make their mess up in the cockpit which you can just wash down after.

 

[Tranona]

There's a thread on this very subject on the sailing forum at the moment.

The consensus is that the buyer pays, however in this market I'd always say you have a choice.

If you decide to go ahead with the purchase then I would assume the trial cost would be deducted from the final cost, but maybe not if you didn't. That said if anything went wrong on the trial I wouldn't expect to pay!

Once again you are confusing a sea trial with a trial sail. This is part of the due diligence when buying from a private person, just the same as a survey, that is confirming (or otherwise) that the boat is as described, the engines work properly and will achieve its designed speed. It is a condition of the contract. So cost is down to the buyer.

 

[vjmehra]

Once again you are confusing a sea trial with a trial sail. This is part of the due diligence when buying from a private person, just the same as a survey, that is confirming (or otherwise) that the boat is as described, the engines work properly and will achieve its designed speed. It is a condition of the contract. So cost is down to the buyer.

Yawn...once again no it's not, it's down to whatever they agree.

I clearly said consensus is that the buyer pays and stated my opinion that if the sale went through I personally would expect this cost to be deducted from the final price.

You don't have to take this approach and neither does the OP, that is merely what I would insist on if I was buying.

 

[Solitaire]

As has been said already selling a planing motorboat on a speed restricted inland waterway is definitely going to cause you problems. Would you buy one and the first time it gets opened up properly is when you own it? It won't have been used properly for a long time potentially. Overheating, pressure related problems, even just the strain on components.

At tick over you could stick an engine together with glue and it would be ok. 20 minutes up on the plane is a very different issue.

If you're buying off a respectable dealer who warrants the boat it isn't so much of a problem. If things start going wrong they are his (or her) problems not yours. A broker draws a line once you've transferred your money and walks off into the sunset.

Henry

I had exactly this situation a couple of weeks ago. A client had purchased a boat that had been used on the river for a number of years. I was giving some OBT and asked how the boat had performed on the sea trial. He said he had not got it up to WOT due to speed restrictions on the river he brought it from. I suggested that we had better check it out! Motoring down the river it was all fine, but within a few minutes of being on the plane the starboard engine overheated. This proved to be the heat exchanger being badly blocked- not uncommon with boats used on rivers. Not only was the core blocked but further investigation revealed the housing itself was corroded and a bill of around £3k was involved. Fortunately for the owner it was a stock boat and the dealer paid.

Folk should be very careful when buying boats used on rivers and then bring them down to the coast. A proper sea trial running the boat up through the rev ranges is an absolute must, particularly when buying a brokerage boat. I average around 5 sea trials a month and it almost always the boats coming off rivers that usually course the problems.

As to cost, yes I get paid for my time depending on the situation. I charge about the same as an engineer for my time plus travel costs if outside my normal area of operation. Who pays depends on the nature of the relationship.in the case of the situation above the new owner is happy to pay, in fact when I sea trialled the boat again after the remedial work had been done, the second sea trial through up a similar issue on the port engine, although the problem was not not so severe. The reason it was discovered on the port engine.

The moral of the story do a proper sea trial! Or as Volvopaul has said hold back money until you can test the boat.

 

[Momac]

Plenty of boats sell on inland waters which are capable of travel at sea .
A good surveyor will find the faults.

Not sure of why a sea trial (or any survey) cost might be deducted but do agree there are no fixed rules.

Boats kept on fresh water may well look better for being in a less corrosive environment. I don't think they sell for any less because of their location.

If the keeping of a boat on speed restricted area worries you I suggest you look elsewhere.







.

 

[Solitaire]

A good surveyor will find the faults.











.

Not if you can't run the boat at planning speed! Overheat problems only really manifest themselves at speed when demand for coolant is higher.

Only yesterday I was doing a sea trial involving surveyor and an engineer - Volvopaul - and each did a different job.

 

[Tranona]

Yawn...once again no it's not, it's down to whatever they agree.

I clearly said consensus is that the buyer pays and stated my opinion that if the sale went through I personally would expect this cost to be deducted from the final price.

You don't have to take this approach and neither does the OP, that is merely what I would insist on if I was buying.

You might "insist" but suspect that the seller might not respond positively. This is a private sale and the seller is offering his boat without any warranty as to whether it is sound or suitable for your use. It is therefore up to you to determine that it is as you have no comeback. If this includes a sea trial to check it operates at speed that is your cost. When making your offer it is sensible to take into account that you will incur the cost of a survey and sea trial. You sign the contract on the assumption that the boat will be satisfactory and if it turns out not to be in the course of the survey and sea trial you can re-negotiate the price, or even withdraw depending on the specifics.

This is the fundamental difference between buying privately where the only significant law that covers the transaction is the law of contract. However if you are buying from a trader who is selling the boat by way of trade you are covered by consumer law and you may well adopt a different strategy in dealing with the seller, although it still makes sense to have your own independent survey and sea trials.