Sea Sense

[Twister_Ken]

I'd venture to suggest that any power skipper with an ounce of common sense, would - if following a saily tacking up a channel - throttle back to follow the saily at a close distance until the saily has just tacked, then use the whip on the ponies and nip past to leeward before the saily tacks again. Not hard.

 

[fireball]

The one bit of advice I give to any helm who is at all concerned about crossing vessels - head for their stern ...

 

[timbartlett]

OK, if Daka is deliberately amending the rules, which of his observations are incorrect?

I didn't say Daka (or the RYA) was deliberately amending the rules -- which they clearly are not. I said that they were both deliberately amending the text -- which they self-evidently are.In this particular instance, Daka has quoted the RYA's own paraphrase of its own leaflet.

This might be intended to simplify or to save space, or to express in more understandable or less ambiguous terms, but the fact remains that a paraphrase of a paraphrase of a paraphrase is unlikely to have exactly the same meaning as the original.

 

[timbartlett]

I'd venture to suggest that any power skipper with an ounce of common sense, would - if following a saily tacking up a channel - throttle back to follow the saily at a close distance until the saily has just tacked, then use the whip on the ponies and nip past to leeward before the saily tacks again. Not hard.

And as someone with a foot in both camps, I'd venture to suggest that a sailing boat tacking up a narrow channel is likely to be going so slowly that he may well be going slower than the speed at which many motor boats lose steerage way. And that any motor boater who uses "the whip on the ponies" is likely to find themselves the target of all the usual abuse and complaints from sailors and possibly nicked by some over-officious jobsworth.

And the reason for this is what? Because one individual in a sailing boat believes that his self-asserted "right" to fossick about in a busy river is not only more important than anyone else's right to get out into open water where they can start enjoying themselves in their way, but even over-rides Rule 9b (which specifically says "...a sailing vessel shall not impede..." ??

 

[DAKA]

I didn't say Daka (or the RYA) was deliberately amending the rules -- which they clearly are not. I said that they were both deliberately amending the text -- which they self-evidently are.In this particular instance, Daka has quoted the RYA's own paraphrase of its own leaflet.

This might be intended to simplify or to save space, or to express in more understandable or less ambiguous terms, but the fact remains that a paraphrase of a paraphrase of a paraphrase is unlikely to have exactly the same meaning as the original.

Your post makes good sense and I also agree I may have subconsciously enhanced the Chinese whisper effect , hence my straight copy paste above in order to try to correct at least my 3rd hand whisper.

In my opinion the RYA text is not aimed at anyone who has bothered to read the col regs in full as they already know their obligations to safe seaman ship.

The RYA text is aimed at the sailor who's only tuition and col regs awareness has been from the Yacht Club bar over a few beers or from a basic RYA course which barely touches on col regs and tutored by a clot who has himself only gained experience from the club bar or aboard another clots yacht.
We dont have these issues on the East coast, skippers and crew I sail with are far more safety concious.
Despite being known as a stinker on this forum, I have sailed far more than motored recently.

 

[Twister_Ken]

"And that any motor boater who uses "the whip on the ponies" is likely to find themselves the target of all the usual abuse and complaints from sailors and possibly nicked by some over-officious jobsworth."

Not likely. The mobo is only going to have to notch up a couple of knots to get clear ahead of the saily.

As to loosing steerage, maybe, but isn't that just bad planning ahead by the mobo driver?

 

[OLLIE45]

I must say I find some of the attitudes expressed by the stinkies in this thread very distressing. Particularly the scenario where a powerboat is ploughing up a narrow channel and forces a yacht that is beating to run aground by overtaking just at the moment when the yacht is about to tack. I have to warn mobo drivers that SWMBO would have some very strong words for any mobo driver who did this to her!

Am I really expected to believe that:-
1/ There are 'stinkies' on here that would really behave like that?
AND
2/ There are 'raggies' on here that genuinely believe that there are??

Come on guys, there is enough grief in this world without us bickering amongst ourselves. Surely the sea is a big enough place for everyone whatever 'floats your boat' or indeed powers it.

 

[snowleopard]

I must say I find some of the attitudes expressed by the stinkies in this thread very distressing. Particularly the scenario where a powerboat is ploughing up a narrow channel and forces a yacht that is beating to run aground by overtaking just at the moment when the yacht is about to tack. I have to warn mobo drivers that SWMBO would have some very strong words for any mobo driver who did this to her!

Let me frst say that I am a raggie and have been for over 50 years. I object to stinkies carving up raggies but I also object to raggies claiming rights of way they don't have under the rules.

The scenario in the OP was - a raggie crosses the bow of a stinkie who duly takes avoiding action, then immediately tacks back across the unfortunate guy's bows causing him to have to take immediate and drastic action. It happens a lot and in that case the raggie is 100% in the wrong.

To say 'but it would make me go aground' or 'he should have known what I was going to do' or worst of all 'power gives way to sail' is no defence and yelling at the guy because he isn't obeying a set of rules that exists only in the raggie's head just gives us all a bad name.

 

[Cruiser2B]

No they simply require you not to tack in front of another vessel. How you achieve that is up to you. You could for example anticipate that you would have to tack back into the path of the vessel and not cross his path in the first place, you can heave to while waiting for him to pass

I stand by my statement: Daka is correct.

The rules do not prevent you from tacking in front of another vessel; they only require that you do not create a close-quarters situation.

 

[roger]

The stand-on boat

Colregs - he say "The stand-on boat shall hold its course and speed"
This, I suggest, means what it says. It does not mean it can tack onto a collision course.
If, in a narrow channel, it needs to tack in order to avoid grounding, then it, in effect, loses "stand-on" status because it is no longer "standing-on" and must avoid other close quarter boats until it can settle onto a safe course.
As a comparison you would presumably condone a boat whhich is motoring and being overtaken, suddenly altering course to create a collision situation with the overtaking boat.
Sailboats persistently tack up narrow channels (in Sweden) assuming that all other craft must keep out of their way. Meeting them is a nightmare because it is near impossible even for a sailor like me to anticipate when they will choose to tack. Far too often they tack onto collision courses.

 

[fireball]

Colregs - he say "The stand-on boat shall hold its course and speed"

I can't be arsed to dig out the colregs ... but I understand that the colregs do have words to the above effect ...

However ... you should also apply your own common sense (something sadly missing in many ppl today) and see that if they are standing into a bank or shallow water then it will NOT BE POSSIBLE for them to hold their course and speed - whether or not they should be there is neither here nor there - whilst you have no obligation to anticipate their actions, you should be prepared to take appropriate action if and when they do.

 

[DJE]

Narrow channels get their own rule (Rule 9) including:-

Narrow channels
(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the
outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel
which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

Which seems pretty clear to me!

 

[Cruiser2B]

Colregs - he say "The stand-on boat shall hold its course and speed".

In this context, "course" has been taken to mean "the navigational path, including changes in heading made necessary by navigational safety." If a power driven vessel is being overtaken in a channel and comes to a natural bend in the channel, he is expected to follow the bend, not steam into the bank holding a steady heading. But you are right that tacks shall not be made such that they would create an imminent collision.

 

[Cruiser2B]

Narrow channels get their own rule (Rule 9) including:-

Narrow channels
(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the
outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel
which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

Which seems pretty clear to me!

I doubt that will make it any clearer. Obviously it's not safe and/or practicable for a sailboat that's tacking up a channel to remain to starboard. Nor does a mobo need to stay starboard when he's passing another vessel.

"Shall not impede" means very specifically that you shall not force another vessel into shallow or navigationally unsafe water. If you further dissect Rule 9(b) you can see that any vessel of less than 20m shall not impede any vessel that could be impeded (that includes sailing vessels).

 

[timbartlett]

I can't be arsed to dig out the colregs ... but I understand that the colregs do have words to the above effect ...

However ... you should also apply your own common sense (something sadly missing in many ppl today) and see that if they are standing into a bank or shallow water then it will NOT BE POSSIBLE for them to hold their course and speed - whether or not they should be there is neither here nor there - whilst you have no obligation to anticipate their actions, you should be prepared to take appropriate action if and when they do.

The logic of this seems to be that as well as navigating his own vessel, the skipper of the motor boat is subject to some kind of unwritten obligation to observe and predict the behaviour of a vessel whose draft and handling characteristics may be completely unfamiliar to him.

The skipper of the sailing vessel, on the other hand, seems to have no such obligation: you are arguing not only that he should not be expected to "look before you tack" but also that he should be allowed to tack whenever he feels like it because he has no responsibility to predict the consequences of his own behaviour.

Somehow that doesn't seem entirely fair to me -- particularly as the colregs unambiguously specify that it is the sailing vessel that has the responsibility not to impede!

 

[Sans Bateau]

Let me frst say that I am a raggie and have been for over 50 years. I object to stinkies carving up raggies but I also object to raggies claiming rights of way they don't have under the rules.

The scenario in the OP was - a raggie crosses the bow of a stinkie who duly takes avoiding action, then immediately tacks back across the unfortunate guy's bows causing him to have to take immediate and drastic action. It happens a lot and in that case the raggie is 100% in the wrong.

To say 'but it would make me go aground' or 'he should have known what I was going to do' or worst of all 'power gives way to sail' is no defence and yelling at the guy because he isn't obeying a set of rules that exists only in the raggie's head just gives us all a bad name.

This really sums up this situation very well, I fully agree with this statement.

However, I have to take issue with Daka's post where he quotes from the RYA:

RYA written statement

"If you tack in to the path of a
power boat, YOU, the sailing
vessel are in the wrong,
because you have not acted
in the way required of the
stand on vessel. Don’t just
presume that the approaching
powerboat is going to realise that
you are running out of water and need
to tack, do so in good time to prevent a close quarters
situation (either with the shallows or with the motor
boat) occurring. In narrow channels, a large motorboat
or sailing yacht under auxiliary power, restricted to
navigating within the channel may become the stand on
vessel "

end quote

I take issue with the way DAKA is presenting this. This statement is NOT the text of the IRPCS (col regs) it is advice by the RYA based on the IRPCS, so lets not be confused. However, it does put the relative regulation into English, and that concurs with Snowleopards post.

There are IMO, two conditions where the potential meeting of power and sail vessels needs careful consideration and discussion, and both need to have common sense as the underlaying rule.

The first one, the closing or crossing situation that a sailing vessel may encounter with a large merchant ship, whilst crossing the channel for instance. For a sailing vessel to hold a 'stand on' position with a VLCS would be sheer madness. A little luffing may well be all that is needed to allow the merchant ship time to safely pass ahead. Its not only the merchant ship that is clearly in view that one needs to be watching however, it may well be the one that has yet to come over the horizon that may present a problem. At the speeds they travel at you need to plan ahead. Also calling a merchant vessel on VHF without first establishing its correct identity via AIS may well be likely to lead to a trouble.

The second, the closing or crossing situation that a sailing vessel may encounter with a 40ft (say) power boat. This is the situation that we are more likely to encounter and are more likely to experience in a narrow channel, the entrance to Chichester Harbour or the Hamble river for instance. Here we are more likely to find an inexperienced sailor or power boater, therefore staying within the spirit of the rules one has to apply a great deal of common sense. Examples of this inexperience may well be seen as boats of both types filter down the channel on the wrong side. Both power and sail must be prepared to alter course, abort the tack, tack early, slow down, or even stop, you might know what you are doing but the other guy may be a twice a season man.

I fully understand that there is only one version of the IRPCS but you cannot apply the same gravity to the channel crossing situation to that of a harbour entrance. Its not good enough DAKA suggesting in one of his posts that harbour masters might do well too impose a 'motoring only' restriction. I fear that would only benefit the power boater, helm on autopilot setting his gps derived waypoint course uninterrupted.

So to sum up, and without reference to the IRPCS, sailors should show consideration for when they tack, tacking early if need be. Power boaters should be prepared to back off the throttle a little to allow the boat in front to clear, maybe even just altering your course a bit, then reapplying some power.

Irrespective of what type of boat you have, as Fireball allude to, you have to think and look ahead.

 

[john_morris_uk]

For a sailing vessel to hold a 'stand on' position with a VLCS would be sheer madness.

I agree with nearly everything that you say except this statement. 99 out of 100m VLCS in the channel are prepared to keep clear of a sailing vessel. They need careful watching and they don't alter course by much, but most of the large ships DO alter to keep clear of you when you are the stand on vessel.

Conversely it drives all the big ship navigators that I know to distraction when small sailing vessels muck about and don't hold their course when they are supposed to. It actually makes the VLCS's bridge watch keeper's job much more difficult as they have no idea what you are going to do next.

I don't want to drift the thread as this argument has been exercised many times on this forum before.

Nothing in my comments should be construed as a suggestion that small boats should play chicken and pass close ahead of another vessel (whatever the size.) The responsibility to avoid collisions is with all who proceed to sea, and when it is clear that a 'give way vessel' is not giving way, then you in the small boat must keep clear.

This DOESN'T mean giving way to everything as soon as it is in sight.

Apply the IRPCS with some common sense and all will be well.

It appears that some forumites choose to keep half a mile or so off any merchant ship in the area. As I have said before - go racing it soon gets you used to close quarters situations... However passing 50 metres behind a vessel is a different kettle of fish to passing 50 Meters in front of a vessel... One is madness and the other doesn't matter at all.

None of this has much to do with Daka's original post. The RYA advice is sensible - but it isn't a point scoring system.
There are stupid yachtsmen and stupid power-boaters out on the water. Watch out for them - and for the majority, the RYA leaflet is about helping us to use the water together and harmoniously.

 

[DJE]

I doubt that will make it any clearer. Obviously it's not safe and/or practicable for a sailboat that's tacking up a channel to remain to starboard. Nor does a mobo need to stay starboard when he's passing another vessel.

"Shall not impede" means very specifically that you shall not force another vessel into shallow or navigationally unsafe water. If you further dissect Rule 9(b) you can see that any vessel of less than 20m shall not impede any vessel that could be impeded (that includes sailing vessels).

Strange that, I read it as a pretty good reason not to tack in narrow channels when there is a lot of traffic about.

 

[fireball]

The logic of this seems to be that as well as navigating his own vessel, the skipper of the motor boat is subject to some kind of unwritten obligation to observe and predict the behaviour of a vessel whose draft and handling characteristics may be completely unfamiliar to him.

The skipper of the sailing vessel, on the other hand, seems to have no such obligation: you are arguing not only that he should not be expected to "look before you tack" but also that he should be allowed to tack whenever he feels like it because he has no responsibility to predict the consequences of his own behaviour.

Somehow that doesn't seem entirely fair to me -- particularly as the colregs unambiguously specify that it is the sailing vessel that has the responsibility not to impede!

You've taken my post completely wrong ... no - a mobo skipper isn't meant to know exactly what the sailboat skipper is doing, nor vice versa - but ... with both using a bit of common sense (something you've failed to apply when reading my post) BOTH skippers can see situations developing and don't end up charging into a close quarters scenario ...

eg - if you're a mobo skipper and up in front there is a sail boat tacking up the same way - watch him, see how far he tends to go in, plan your passing manouver to when there is most space - don't just hold your course and speed and hope it will all work out ...

and if you're the sailboat skipper and there is a mobo coming up behind you then think about your obligations to him, work out when you should tack so your actions are more predictable - don't leave everything to the last minute and hope the mobo will get out of the way.

Nothing of the above is anything to do with the Colregs - it is prior to Colregs - it is how most racers go around the circuit - quickly ..

 

[Cruiser2B]

Strange that, I read it as a pretty good reason not to tack in narrow channels when there is a lot of traffic about.

What option is there for a sailboat, then?