Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
I am curious - why would you want to be treated as a sailing vessel if you're under power?
Sea Sense
- Thread starter DAKA
- Start date
I am curious - why would you want to be treated as a sailing vessel if you're under power?
Jenaline IV
Well-Known Member
I think that there are truths and obligations on both sides of this debate. The stand-on vessel should do just that where possible. If he is under sail and tacking against the current I doubt anyone would want him to stop in irons near a bank and possibly run aground. The overtaking vessel should be able to read the situation and slow down if the stand-on cannot or has not tacked early to avoid being caught out. Additionally dliberately tacking across someone who is overtaking you when you can avoid it is just plain rude and potentially dangerous.
It's just like driving guys, be defensive. Follow the rules but think ahead. I sail a dinghy with a relatively low freeboard around Poole, the solent and even out in the channel at a safe distance to the shore and in the right weather conditions. I know my obligations but I dont press my rights when faced with another vessel that hasn't complied with colregs. If a mobo comes past very fast (as often happens) I point the bow into the wake and make sure everything is attached or tied down, simples! I dont get upset about it, my job gives me enough ulcers to get upset doing the one thing I love in life.....sailing
It's just like driving guys, be defensive. Follow the rules but think ahead. I sail a dinghy with a relatively low freeboard around Poole, the solent and even out in the channel at a safe distance to the shore and in the right weather conditions. I know my obligations but I dont press my rights when faced with another vessel that hasn't complied with colregs. If a mobo comes past very fast (as often happens) I point the bow into the wake and make sure everything is attached or tied down, simples! I dont get upset about it, my job gives me enough ulcers to get upset doing the one thing I love in life.....sailing
Robin
Well-Known Member
Why do certain people have to take undue risks and cause situations which can be easily avoided?
I don’t think the MV had to alter course, but I do believe he reduced rev’s so as to allow the Yacht to pass safely.
I bet you believe in fairies too!
OGITD
Well-Known Member
No!
No!....I believe in decency, fair-play and being nice!
But if you are in a corner and someone is charging towards you throwing punches and expletives, then you just have to come-out fighting!
I bet you believe in fairies too!
No!....I believe in decency, fair-play and being nice!
But if you are in a corner and someone is charging towards you throwing punches and expletives, then you just have to come-out fighting!
OGITD
Well-Known Member
"I like the cut of your Jib"
"I like the cut of your Jib"...Sir!
I know my obligations but I dont press my rights when faced with another vessel that hasn't complied with colregs. If a mobo comes past very fast (as often happens) I point the bow into the wake and make sure everything is attached or tied down, simples! I dont get upset about it, my job gives me enough ulcers to get upset doing the one thing I love in life.....sailing
"I like the cut of your Jib"...Sir!
T
timbartlett
Guest
Rule 13(a) applies to the overtaking vessel.
It does not overwrite all the rules that affect the overtakee.
You could not, for instance, claim that you are not required to keep a lookout while you are being overtaken, nor does being overtaken by one vessel exempt you from your responsiblities towards any other that you may meet.
And (crucially) it does not remove the overtakee's obligation to conform to Rule 17.
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T
timbartlett
Guest
chinese whispers
I'm sure at least some of us must have played chinese whispers, in which a group of people pass a message from one to another until it gets back to whoever started it -- invariably distorted, and sometimes beyond recognition. You can get a similar effect by asking babelfish to translate a simple phrase from english to french, french to german and german to english.
Much the same has happened here: the RYA has "simplified" some of the colregs, and Daka has (slightly mischievously?) paraphrased the RYA's paraphrase.
The only difference between this and chinese whispers is that in this case both stages involve someone deliberately trying to amend the original text, rather than having it happen by accident.
The official text, incidentally, is available on loads of websites, including http://www.timbartlett.co.uk/MSN1781.pdf
I'm sure at least some of us must have played chinese whispers, in which a group of people pass a message from one to another until it gets back to whoever started it -- invariably distorted, and sometimes beyond recognition. You can get a similar effect by asking babelfish to translate a simple phrase from english to french, french to german and german to english.
Much the same has happened here: the RYA has "simplified" some of the colregs, and Daka has (slightly mischievously?) paraphrased the RYA's paraphrase.
The only difference between this and chinese whispers is that in this case both stages involve someone deliberately trying to amend the original text, rather than having it happen by accident.
The official text, incidentally, is available on loads of websites, including http://www.timbartlett.co.uk/MSN1781.pdf
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
OK, if Daka is deliberately amending the rules, which of his observations are incorrect?
# there is a comon misconception that sail has right of way over power
# Look around & be aware
# Look before you tack
# Give sea room,
# Be friendly - don`t buzz
# Use your motoring cone when motoring
# Use your anchor ball & give anchored craft a wide berth
# Racing yachts are not exempt from col regs
# If you tack into the path of a power boat YOU ARE IN THE WRONG, regardless of the fact you may run aground if you do not tack.
I would suggest that those in red are good seamanship and considerate behaviour, the rest are straight out of the colregs. Which do you object to?
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
NormanS
Well-Known Member
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I'd also gone with the assumption that that rule 17 didn't apply to the overtakee. It wouldn't have made any difference to my sailing on the water but that correction has stopped me from living with a misapprehension for who knows how long.
Mind you, I never let anything overtake me and anyone who does is gay.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Can you describe an acceptable situation where by a sailing skipper should allow himself to be in a position where the only path out is under the bow of a power boat ?
In order to avoid the shallows couldnt he gybe, spill wind, sail into wind and wait ?
RYA written statement
"If you tack in to the path of a
power boat, YOU, the sailing
vessel are in the wrong,
because you have not acted
in the way required of the
stand on vessel. Don’t just
presume that the approaching
powerboat is going to realise that
you are running out of water and need
to tack, do so in good time to prevent a close quarters
situation (either with the shallows or with the motor
boat) occurring. In narrow channels, a large motorboat
or sailing yacht under auxiliary power, restricted to
navigating within the channel may become the stand on
vessel "
end quote
These statements although endorsed by me are not written by me, they are RYA statements, it is a shame this argument has been taken as one against DAKA and not taken as serious authoritative instruction which could save lives.
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peterb
Well-Known Member
There may be a problem here. Many of the Rules are slightly ambiguous, and become the subject of court decisions which may modify the apparent meaning.
Several years ago I managed to get a look at "Marsden on Collisions at Sea". Marsden was a 19th century lawyer who wrote a book covering all aspects of the law covering collisions at sea, including the relevant court decisions. His book has now been through many editions, the latest I know published in 2003 as the 13th edition. It is the legal reference book on the subject, but priced at £513 for the volume it is not one likely to be found on the average yachtsman's bookshelf.
One decision that sticks in my mind is of a collision between a tacking square-rigger and a steamship. As I remember it, the decision was that the sailing ship's course was to windward, and the fact that this was achieved by regular changes of heading did not mean that her course was being changed; the steamship was thus at fault for not appreciating the way in which the sailing ship had to sail. As I say, it is several years ago that I read it, but perhaps someone else with better access to Marsden could check my memory?
Several years ago I managed to get a look at "Marsden on Collisions at Sea". Marsden was a 19th century lawyer who wrote a book covering all aspects of the law covering collisions at sea, including the relevant court decisions. His book has now been through many editions, the latest I know published in 2003 as the 13th edition. It is the legal reference book on the subject, but priced at £513 for the volume it is not one likely to be found on the average yachtsman's bookshelf.
One decision that sticks in my mind is of a collision between a tacking square-rigger and a steamship. As I remember it, the decision was that the sailing ship's course was to windward, and the fact that this was achieved by regular changes of heading did not mean that her course was being changed; the steamship was thus at fault for not appreciating the way in which the sailing ship had to sail. As I say, it is several years ago that I read it, but perhaps someone else with better access to Marsden could check my memory?
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
It's a good topic, and given some of the apparent misconceptions, it offers us a chance at mutual education. I'm not in it to bash DAKA, so don't take my posts as such.
Should a sailing skipper allow himself to get in the position where he's caught between going aground or crossing close in front of another vessel, then he's screwed up. He didn't pay attention or plan ahead, whatever. But if he's tacking up a channel and another vessel is coming up from astern, he is still able to manoeuvre as is required to stay safe navigationally, including tacking across the path of the approaching vessel (if still at a safe distance). Rule 2 suggests that the sailor should time his tacks so as to not interfere with the overtaking vessel, and facilitate its passing by "picking a side". Nothing keeping them from making passing arrangements over VHF. In the worst case scenario where the sailor gets himself between a rock and a hard place, you (and the RYA) are quite correct that tacking close in front of an overtaking vessel is wrong, and then luffing up/gybing/spilling the sails and waiting would be the prudent action.
tcm
...
i had a great time with a 23m powerboat in lots of narrow channels, and almost got to the point of having 9(d) (i think it's 9d, not looked it up for a while_ on the bows, heyho. Sailing boats should not impede powered boats over 20m in narrow channels, as far as i'm aware?...
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
No they simply require you not to tack in front of another vessel. How you achieve that is up to you. You could for example anticipate that you would have to tack back into the path of the vessel and not cross his path in the first place, you can heave to while waiting for him to pass
I stand by my statement: Daka is correct.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
SlowlyButSurely
Well-Known Member
Well for example if I'm singlehanding and have to change a headsail I sometimes use the engine to help out the autopilot to save having to heave-to for 5 minutes.
I must say I find some of the attitudes expressed by the stinkies in this thread very distressing. Particularly the scenario where a powerboat is ploughing up a narrow channel and forces a yacht that is beating to run aground by overtaking just at the moment when the yacht is about to tack. I have to warn mobo drivers that SWMBO would have some very strong words for any mobo driver who did this to her!
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Please will everyone agree to move away from the stinker argument, these are not my col reg definition, they are RYA.
Assuming your post is not a troll, it demonstrates exactly why I stuck my neck out and posted on here.
If any Harbour masters are reading this they should now realize they need a very good explanation ready for a defence as to why they have not prohibited sailing in Narrow channels and mooring fairways under their jurisdiction.
fireball
Well-Known Member
I'd not worry about any "attitudes" of "stinkies" in this thread ...
The assumption made is that everyone looks just infront of their boat and not around them - hence any action by another vessel that puts it in that field of view is seen as contravention of some colreg or another ...
The reality is (or should be) that people look all around them and naturally assess where boats are going so they can helm their own boat without interfering or being interfered with ... the occasional conflicts then occur when the they haven't been able to anticipate all the movements and end up close quarters with another vessel - the correct action to take at this point is to wave and carry on ... what usually happens is a bit of shouting and alternative waving ...
Sometimes you'll come across skippers who do only look 30' in front of their boat and whilst you've been busy holding your course & speed waiting for them to give way, they haven't even noticed you ... that usually ends up with a bit of shouting and alternative waving ... and hopefully the skipper will wake up and start looking around him.
Then you get trolls ... who like a good wind up on the forums - they are practised at pushing just the right buttons ... there was an Asterix book on this type of behaviour ... I'll have to dig it out ..