Sea Cadets - Advice please

[tarik]

Our local Sea Cadet Unit has been donated a Corribee yacht for the local Cadet to learn to sail.

It has come back to me (unofficially) that they are none too pleased as it they will have to have the yacht ' Coded' before they can use it.


What does this Coding involve and how much is it likely to cost ?


Any advice would be gratefully received.


David

 

[Searush]

It involves the boat being upgraded to the relevant safety standards (including equipment) suitable for commercial hire. Quite expensive as it icludes a lot of safety equipment as well as meeting many other standards.

Ask who is insisting on that standard, if it is for voluntary shared use & the normal activity disclaimers are used, it may not need to be commercially coded.

But yes, it is likely to cost a few grand to get it coded & the boat may not be worth that much. You could explain the situation to the donor & ask if he minds you selling it to raise funds. Another alternative is for the donor to retain ownership & take volunteers out himself, or another volunteer/ helper to take it on under the same conditions.

It's all about the organisation trying to cover their ass.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... What does this Coding involve and how much is it likely to cost ? ....

Contact the RYA who have lists for coding a yacht that can be downloaded. However, talk to them about it and explain your circumstances, they are quite helpful and knowledgable on these matters.

Its not cheap to code and for a yacht that size you could easily blow £7000 if the yacht has to start from scratch with coding.

 

[William_H]

Commercial operation of a yacht

of course the rules may be different here but basically if you charge people for money to ride ona boat it is a commercial operation requiring both a "coded' boat (as you call it) and a commercially rated skipper.
Our Yachting association accredited club sailing schools came across this problem as private boats are used. A dispensation was given by the marine authorities. People obviously pay cash for training. Commercial sailing schools seem to be required to have "coded" boats.

Our local scouts however have no similar concerns. They pay to be members of the scouts but the boats are simply provided for use.
Our local scouts some years back bought a 20ft fibreglass fin keel yacht called a Spacesailer. A very common popular design. This was so successful they soon bought another. The kids can come to very little harm on these boats in sheltered waters. They certainly are much better for training and simply getting kids to love boats than the Mirror dinghies they previously used.

An acquaintance did get a 22ft Sorcerer fin keel f/g yacht "coded". Obviously the boat must be surveyed and found sound. It must have all the safety gear and a lot of signage on location of gear and use. Nothing too dramatic. The worst part was the great orange sign on the side SPV1234. (Surveyed Passenger Vessel). The survey seemed to accept that the design and size of the boat is what it is and was approved for a limited number of passengers. He was going to take tourists out but that never eventuated. he did make some money out of leasing it to a sailing school because it was coded.

I can't imagine however that Sea Cadets would need a coded boat. Confirm both with marine authorities and insurance company. good luck olewill

 

[alant]

Our local Sea Cadet Unit has been donated a Corribee yacht for the local Cadet to learn to sail.

It has come back to me (unofficially) that they are none too pleased as it they will have to have the yacht ' Coded' before they can use it.


What does this Coding involve and how much is it likely to cost ?


Any advice would be gratefully received.


David

Sell it & use proceeds.

A Corribee is only 21', so not worth coding.

http://www.boatshop24.co.uk/Corribee-boats.html

 

[prv]

of course the rules may be different here

May? Will!

There is no reason to suppose that there will be anything in common between UK and Australian bureaucracy.

These days, anything in this country involving kids is regulated almost (sometimes actually) out of existence.

Pete

 

[peterb]

There are special provisions in the Code for what are called 'members' clubs'.

The Small Commercial Vessel Code specifies (3.1.3):
“Pleasure vessels are excepted from the code, and included in the definition of pleasure vessels are those vessels wholly owned by or on behalf of a members club. Reference should be made to the Regulations for a proper description of the conditions that need to be met for a members’ club vessel to claim exception as a pleasure vessel.

I don't know whether the Sea Cadets could be considered as a members' club, but if so then there is no legal reason for the vessel to be coded.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Our local Sea Cadet Unit has been donated a Corribee yacht for the local Cadet to learn to sail.
It has come back to me (unofficially) that they are none too pleased as it they will have to have the yacht ' Coded' before they can use it.

What does this Coding involve and how much is it likely to cost ?

Hi David
You should download a copy of The Code of Practice for the Safety of Small Commercial Sailing Vessels http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/blue.pdf and you will see that one crucial question is, sensibly, the use to which the boat will be put. If you are to stay within 20 M of a safe haven, in daylight, the only expensive thing you need really is a liferaft. Esitmates of £7k are I think pretty wide of the mark. There is absolutely nothing in the code that any reasonable person would regard as anything other than rational and prudent.
I don't know the ins and outs of the Sea Cadets' internal rules but I would be surprised if they allowed the operation of a boat that did not conform to the relevant Code Category as an official part of a local group's programme. The Corribee is a great wee boat and it would be a shame if the offer couldn't be taken up.

 

[tarik]

Sea Cadets vessel coding

Hi David
You should download a copy of The Code of Practice for the Safety of Small Commercial Sailing Vessels http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/blue.pdf and you will see that one crucial question is, sensibly, the use to which the boat will be put. If you are to stay within 20 M of a safe haven, in daylight, the only expensive thing you need really is a liferaft. Esitmates of £7k are I think pretty wide of the mark. There is absolutely nothing in the code that any reasonable person would regard as anything other than rational and prudent.
I don't know the ins and outs of the Sea Cadets' internal rules but I would be surprised if they allowed the operation of a boat that did not conform to the relevant Code Category as an official part of a local group's programme. The Corribee is a great wee boat and it would be a shame if the offer couldn't be taken up.

Ken

Very many thanks for your reply, I'll point the local OIC in the right direction. Hopefully things can be resolved so that the youngsters can get some benefit.


David

 

[Barney Rubble]

exemptions

I'm guessing that the sea cadets unit you are involved with is RYA recognised therefore they could run it under the RYA keelboat exemptions so long as the RYA inspected it for keelboat recognition as part of the annulal recognition. This would reduce the equipment to a minimum and keep it realistic.

Alternatively, if you are using it in estuaries you may well be able to get an exemption via the MCA as it will be classed as inland waters - you may even get away with no requirement or a local licence.

Very doubtful if you need to code it for what you will be doing, however you will need to take adequate precaution to manage the risk.

PM me if you need chatting through the process and options.

 

[alahol2]

Our local sea scouts use rowing and sailing vessels which I very much doubt have ever been coded

 

[Elemental]

Our local sea scouts use rowing and sailing vessels which I very much doubt have ever been coded

I'm a scout leader.

They (the sailing boats) may not have been formally coded, but if not, they will have been tested and assessed to be at comparable levels. The Scout Association has exemptions from certain statutory regs, but often (usually) insists on internal assesments (of leaders and equipment) that closely track best practices and procedures of relevant NGB's.

For sailing dinghies this will include pressure tests of sealed tanks, bouyancy sink tests. For keelboats and up I understand MCA regs are tracked.

Regarding the OP's query. Whilst there may be no statutory requirement to have the boat coded, internal SOP's may well require it.

Probably the best advice is to sell it and use the proceeds elsewhere.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I'm a scout leader.

They (the sailing boats) may not have been formally coded, but if not, they will have been tested and assessed to be at comparable levels. The Scout Association has exemptions from certain statutory regs, but often (usually) insists on internal assesments (of leaders and equipment) that closely track best practices and procedures of relevant NGB's.

For sailing dinghies this will include pressure tests of sealed tanks, bouyancy sink tests. For keelboats and up I understand MCA regs are tracked.

Regarding the OP's query. Whilst there may be no statutory requirement to have the boat coded, internal SOP's may well require it.

Probably the best advice is to sell it and use the proceeds elsewhere.

How sad. Nice boat for the kids to learn to sail and have adventures, and SOPs say no.

 

[Searush]

I wonder what Uffa Fox would think of this sort of bureaucratic ass covering?

He took a party of scouts fom Brownsea Island across the channel & up the Seine to Paris (& back) in a 25' open admiralty style sailing & pulling whaler.

They had Kapok bouancy aids that they sat on & used as pillows. When off watch, they slept under the thwarts covered by spare sails. Several days it took, cooking on primus stoves while sailing or rowing. No-one was hurt, no untoward incidents & all had a great adventure.

But Uffa was a consumate sailor, seaman & leader after the old school.

We lose so much by nannying our kids.

 

[Searush]

Best bet is probably to get a volunteer to take it on & offer crewing opportunities on a personal basis (as you might to fellow yacht club members) so it is completely outside the Scouting Organisation rules.

Scouting shouldn't be about being over protective - Baden Powell set it up to challenge kids thro adventure, not swaddle 'em in cotton wool! I am an Ex-Sea Scout (my first intro to the magic of sailing) seething at what I'm reading! My son went thro beavers/ cubs & scouts & I helped with the troop, it was starting to be run & managed by administrator types then & I can now see the rot was starting.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

It's an easy position to take that we are nannying our kids and so on but when taking responsibility for other people's children it's good to regularly ask yourself 'what would I say to the inquest/inquiry etc. if things go wrong'. This is not a new problem. In 1912, 9 sea scouts from the 2nd Walworth Troop were drowned off the Isle of Sheppey.

Even the RN has had to deal with such concerns. HMS Illustrious was appointed by the Admiralty as the first training ship for boys in 1854. The experiment was judged successful in achieving the aim of inculcating in trainees a love of the sea and pride in the service. Despite the progressive replacement of sailing warships with steamships, a number of other vessels were commissioned as training ships. The sinking of two of these square-rigged training ships, the Euridice in 1878 and the Atalanta two years later and the associated loss of life however led to a public outcry and the beginning of the end for sail training in this traditional sense as part of the naval induction.

It is probably true that we have in some ways become more risk averse, particularly in relation to children and young people, than was the case historically. We should however be wary of simplistic arguments and posturing about how organisations that want to enable young people to experience sailing and seafaring should go about that. I'm not accusing anyone of posturing, merely making the point that there are some difficult questions to be faced in this area.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... could easily blow £7000 if the yacht has to start from scratch with coding.

... Esitmates of £7k are I think pretty wide of the mark. ...

Having coded second hand yachts from 28' up to 41' for Category 1 or 2 from scratch the £7k figure is not unreasonable if every item requires some aspect to be addressed.

Of course if its just a couple of buckets and lanyards ......

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Having coded second hand yachts from 28' up to 41' for Category 1 or 2 from scratch the £7k figure is not unreasonable if every item requires some aspect to be addressed.

Of course if its just a couple of buckets and lanyards ......

Quite possibly so but I fear you have quoted me a little selectively:
If you are to stay within 20 M of a safe haven, in daylight, the only expensive thing you need really is a liferaft. Estimates of £7k are I think pretty wide of the mark. (If the vessel concerned is a Corribee to be used in Cat4 waters, was intended to be implied.)

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Quite possibly so but I fear you have quoted me a little selectively:
If you are to stay within 20 M of a safe haven, in daylight, the only expensive thing you need really is a liferaft. Estimates of £7k are I think pretty wide of the mark. (If the vessel concerned is a Corribee to be used in Cat4 waters, was intended to be implied.)

I wasn't quoting you selectively, I was putting my advice in the context it was given i.e. the category 1 and 2 which I assumed would be comparable for cost purposes.

To be honest I never even considered the other categories and the requirements to code for them, hence the "buckets and lanyards" quip!