Schengen Countries change rules on the 90/180 visa

[akyaka]

There would seem to be a fundemental change in the way the 90/180 day visa is operated in that the 180 days within which you can spend 90 days in the country will be counted back from the day of departure instead of from first arrival. This will particularly affect anyone who leaves the Schengen area towards the end of a 180 day period and returns shortly thereafter as when they next leave they could find that the 90 day period has been exceeded due to overlapping. The Turkish Authorities are applying the same rules.



http://genevalunch.com/2013/08/14/new-schengen-entry-rules-adopted-by-switzerland-eunew-schengen-entry-rules-adopted-by-swiss-eu/

 

[BrianH]

So the parallel-running thread on the superiority of British passport travel needs updating in the light of non-Schengen membership.

"Switzerland will require non-Schengen visitors to provide official identity documents, such as passports, that have been issued within the past 10 years and that will be valid for three months after the traveler’s planned departure from the Schengen area."

"The length of time visitors may stay in the Schengen area will change 18 October, changes that will primarily affect non-Schengen visitors, including those from the British Isles, who spend considerable time in Switzerland and other Schengen countries."​

 

[25931]

So the parallel-running thread on the superiority of British passport travel needs updating in the light of non-Schengen membership.

"Switzerland will require non-Schengen visitors to provide official identity documents, such as passports, that have been issued within the past 10 years and that will be valid for three months after the traveler’s planned departure from the Schengen area."

"The length of time visitors may stay in the Schengen area will change 18 October, changes that will primarily affect non-Schengen visitors, including those from the British Isles, who spend considerable time in Switzerland and other Schengen countries."​

In that case I shan't sail to Switzerland

 

[BrianH]

In that case I shan't sail to Switzerland

Quite right, you'd have to motor a lot and use lots of fuel plugging against the flow on the Rhine from Rotterdam to reach Basel. Best to get a tow from one of those big barges.

 

[akyaka]

The thrust of the fundamental change is that it affects all Schengen countries and Turkey. The article I quoted referring to Switzerland adopting the same policy is merely because I cannot find any articles directly related to Schengen countries . People in Turkey have already been fined on departure due to overstaying with the new countback rule when they were OK under the old count forward basis

 

[maby]

I have to admit to being puzzled by this - at least with respect to its application in EU member states - I appreciate that we are not in the Schengen agreement, but I was under the impression that that only extended as far as meaning that we still conduct border checks - is it not the case that nationals of all EU member states can live and work anywhere in the EU without asking permission? It is admittedly a very long time since I lived and worked in any other country, but I was under the impression that I could simply turn up in Paris, rent a flat and take a job. There certainly seem to be a lot of Poles who do the equivalent in London!

 

[akyaka]

We are a party to the Schengen Agreement its just that the UK and Ireland opted out of the border controls( or lack of them) section. Technically I understand that we may need a visa/residency if we stay longer than 180 days but nobody enforces it.
This change could certainly affect the planning of anyone looking to visit Europe from outside the Schengen countries .

 

[Koeketiene]

We are a party to the Schengen Agreement its just that the UK and Ireland opted out of the border controls( or lack of them) section.

Not entirely accurate.

The participation of Ireland and the United Kingdom

In accordance with the protocol to the Treaty of Amsterdam, Ireland and the United Kingdom can take part in some or all of the Schengen arrangements, if the Schengen Member States and the government representative of the country in question vote unanimously in favour within the Council.

In March 1999, the United Kingdom asked to cooperate in some aspects of Schengen, namely police and judicial cooperation in criminal matters, the fight against drugs and the SIS. The Council Decision 2000/365/EC approving the request by the United Kingdom was adopted on 29 May 2000.

In June 2000, Ireland too asked to take part in some aspects of Schengen, roughly corresponding to the aspects covered by the United Kingdom’s request. The Council adopted the Decision 2002/192/EC approving Ireland’s request on 28 February 2002. The Commission had issued opinions on the two applications, stressing that the partial participation of these two Member States should not reduce the consistency of the acquis as a whole.

After evaluating the conditions that must precede implementation of the provisions governing police and judicial cooperation, the Council consented with its Decision 2004/926/EC of 22 December 2004 that this part of the Schengen acquis could be implemented by the United Kingdom.

More here: http://europa.eu/legislation_summar...t_of_persons_asylum_immigration/l33020_en.htm

 

[vyv_cox]

Technically I understand that we may need a visa/residency if we stay longer than 180 days but nobody enforces it.

We needed a residence permit in Holland after living there for six months. That was in 1997, since when they have tightened things up a lot.

 

[akyaka]

We needed a residence permit in Holland after living there for six months. That was in 1997, since when they have tightened things up a lot.

The fact that you were working may have also been a factor then but your point is well put and people in other countries may be living on borrowed time. Even with the previous rules I think you will find that you were supposed to apply for residency if you spend more than 6 months in the country but who can remember Greece for example ever enforcing it.

 

[maxi77]

The fact that you were working may have also been a factor then but your point is well put and people in other countries may be living on borrowed time. Even with the previous rules I think you will find that you were supposed to apply for residency if you spend more than 6 months in the country but who can remember Greece for example ever enforcing it.

In general residency within the EU is a tax thing rather than an immigration thing. Most countries tend to ignore expats from whom the tax take would be minimal, for example when I lived in Portugal they would have had to give me full medical support but as all my income was already UK taxed I would provide them with no funding for my care, so we mutually agreed to ignore the residency thing. On the other hand those who did live there permanently found the admin required for residency generally worth it. Spain seems to be a bit more severe. Clearly any one working in a country needs to be a tax resident to ensure proper taxes are collected

 

[Marsupial]

This topic has been done to death in Turkey expat land, here is a site with a useful spreadsheet download to help with the complexity.

HOWEVER it has been reported that SOME immigration officers (Antalya, Dalaman and Bodrum) don't agree with the spreadsheet methodology - my citation is the expat network in Kas.

http://www.akbukturkey.com/tourist_visas.html

For Turkey if you are a UK citizen/subject and want to stay for over 90 days continuously its better to apply for a residency permit.

In Greece I needed a residency permit to buy a motorbike.

 

[akyaka]

This topic has been done to death in Turkey expat land, here is a site with a useful spreadsheet download to help with the complexity.

HOWEVER it has been reported that SOME immigration officers (Antalya, Dalaman and Bodrum) don't agree with the spreadsheet methodology - my citation is the expat network in Kas.

http://www.akbukturkey.com/tourist_visas.html

For Turkey if you are a UK citizen/subject and want to stay for over 90 days continuously its better to apply for a residency permit.

In Greece I needed a residency permit to buy a motorbike.

Marsupial read the article . The rules have CHANGED this month in Turkey and throughout the Schengen countries to a count back from departure system.

The site which you quote for calculation , and all of us who live in Turkey had copies of similar to help visitors , is now redundant !


The 180 days in which you calculate the 90 allowable days in the country is counted back from the day of departure not arrival as previously . This means that the 180 days can overlap a previous visa and result in people exceeding the 90 days hence why people are being fined.

I reproduce this quote from another site from which I got the initial link and from my reading of the Turkish part it the English translation accords with it:

In compliance with the Decision of the Council of Ministers dated 10.10.2011, No: 2011/2306, total duration of stay of foreigners who visit Turkey as tourists cannot exceed 90 days within last 180 days period.
“süre…vize muafiyet süresi veya vizede belirtilen kalış süresi yeterli ise yabancının Türkiye'den çıktığı gün itibarıyla önceki 180 gün zarfında 90 gün olarak uygulanır”.
Thus in calculation of 180 days limit, Law no. 5683 states that; (at no time during their present stay in Turkey,) foreign visitors are permitted to exceed 90 days within previous 180 days from their date of DEPARTURE. This means in the calculation of duration of stay in Turkey, foreign visitors should look backward from their present point or from the day of their departure.
It is true that 180 days starts on the first entry. However It should be noted that the main rationale for the rule is to dealt with multiple entries. That’s why one cannot assume rolling 180 days. Since the 90 days limit is applicable over any 180-days period not per 180 days-period
Actually this is similar with new Schengen Visa Rule. On October 18, new 90/180 days rule will be applicable in the Schengen area, an illustration of this rule can be found from
<genevalunch.com/files/2013/08/bsp-berechnung-e.pdf>

 

[Marsupial]

In compliance with the Decision of the Council of Ministers dated 10.10.2011, No: 2011/2306,

and the new rules came in IN TURKEY in Feb 2012

 

[akyaka]

In compliance with the Decision of the Council of Ministers dated 10.10.2011, No: 2011/2306,

and the new rules came in IN TURKEY in Feb 2012

and the newer rules/interpretation regarding multiple entries and the relevant 180 days within which the 90 days residence are checked being counted backwards from day of departure came in in Schengen countries and Turkey in October 2013.

This means it can overlap visas and it would seem from complaints that a number of people have been caught out and fined when leaving.

I am aware that there are a series of meetings with residents set up by the UK consulates in the Mugla region currently taking place and hopefully this change will be/been discussed ; The one in Marmaris was yesterday but I was unable to attend.

 

[jimbaerselman]

The visa rules for Turkey (not more than 90 days in any 180) are easily handled for those who need to stay longer by obtaining a residence permit. Easy if you're living on a boat.

The Schengen visa regulations do not apply to British nationals who have the right to live in Britain.

Individual EU countries may require notification if an EU national from another country spends a continuous period in another country - for whatever reason. These are administration matters, not immigration matters.

Thus Spain asks others to register after 90 days; other countries ask for 180 days. Some do it differently, they tie certain privileges to having a residence permit (owning locally registered vehicles, having your rubbish collected, obtaining subsidised medical services, un-employment benefits). Stick and carrot, you might say.

Opening bank accounts, taking local mobile phone contracts, or other monetary commitments often can not be obtained unless you register a tax number. This doesn't mean you're tax resident, and it's not necessarily tied to how long you spend in the country.

Customs/immigration/tax/registration are all different animals, dealt with by different departments. Not easy to keep track of all the variations. Consulates make a brave, but rather weak effort to give advice. Ex-pat sites for individual countries are more useful. I try to keep up to date with broad trends through my site's "Going Foreign" tab, and the useful hints that the registered site users add with "comments". But there's no reliable way of predicting what some officials may ask for!

 

[temptress]

I have to admit to being puzzled by this - at least with respect to its application in EU member states - I appreciate that we are not in the Schengen agreement, but I was under the impression that that only extended as far as meaning that we still conduct border checks - is it not the case that nationals of all EU member states can live and work anywhere in the EU without asking permission? It is admittedly a very long time since I lived and worked in any other country, but I was under the impression that I could simply turn up in Paris, rent a flat and take a job. There certainly seem to be a lot of Poles who do the equivalent in London!

You are quite right as far as the European is concerned but Switzerland is not in the eu.

 

[akyaka]

You are quite right as far as the European is concerned but Switzerland is not in the eu.

Yes you can" just turn up" but after a period of time whether working or not you will need to get some form of residency permit as identified by both Vyv Cox and Jimbaerselman

 

[BrianH]

You are quite right as far as the European is concerned but Switzerland is not in the eu.

It is in all but name, having adopted most conditions of membership with over 200 trade treaties but without any voting rights. With membership of EFTA and having full signatory participation in the Schengen area, most of the EU's directives are also implemented in Switzerland, including contributions to the improvement fund. Even the EU's right of residence and employment for citizens is implemented for most states, including Bulgaria and Romania.

As the EU is Switzerland's largest trading partner there wasn't much choice, which the population reluctantly recognise although having rejected full membership.

 

[Petronella]

My Understanding is...

and the newer rules/interpretation regarding multiple entries and the relevant 180 days within which the 90 days residence are checked being counted backwards from day of departure came in in Schengen countries and Turkey in October 2013.

This means it can overlap visas and it would seem from complaints that a number of people have been caught out and fined when leaving.

I am aware that there are a series of meetings with residents set up by the UK consulates in the Mugla region currently taking place and hopefully this change will be/been discussed ; The one in Marmaris was yesterday but I was unable to attend.

Hmm. I hesitate to stick my head above the parapet on this thorny issue but simply from reading this thread I don't think anything has changed for Turkey since early 2012. From that time onwards EVERY DAY you were in Turkey (including the day you left the country) you had to look backwards to ensure you had not been in the country for more than 90 days in the previous 180 days - effectively a rolling 180 days.

At that time I produced a spreadsheet for the Cruising Association to keep track of dates to avoid breaking these new rules. If you would like a copy please send me a PM as it seems .xls files are not valid attachments on this forum.

As others have indicated though if you have any concerns about breaking the rules then obtaining a Residency Permit in Turkey is the least stressful way forward. This is a simple exercise for any boat in possession of a Transit Log.

Apologies if I have misunderstood the situation and additional rules have recently been introduced.