sat navs/chart plotters

[lisilou]

Saturday we took full and final possession of our first ever boat and got out all the bits and bobs we aquired with it including a navman 5500 chart plotter. Fantastic!...or so we thought. Until we actually plugged the thing in only to find we seem to need a maritime degree to use it! First reaction was 'Huh?????'
Now, bearing in mind this is our very first boating venture, we honestly thought it would work the same way as a car sat nav (yeh yeh i know there are obvious differences ) i.e put in your destination and it would plot the route for us. How wrong could we be! Please tell me there is a simpletons version on the market where you literally 'point and go'.
This thing seems to be all singing, all dancing and I'm sure it'll even give me a full make over and would be wonderful...for someone who knows what the hell its talking about. As it stands though, we have not a clue.
So, point and go? or am i being really thick?

 

[gregandginas]

Sounds like you need to do your dayskipper theory course before you set foot on your boat again: the fact that you'd even contemplate using a electronics for passage planning is just downright frightening.

Do you have paper charts on board? Do you know how to find out the tidal rates for any given route? Do you know how to allow for them in passage planning?

These bits aren't optional extras, and they should form the basis of your use of a chartplotter.

If you are competent in all of the above... stick appropriate waypoints on the paper chart, key them (manually) into the chartplotter and then you'll find the chartplotter will do what it's supposed to do: track your progress relative to the route you prepared based on spending time getting your head around the tides and assorted hazards along your route.

If none of that appeals then please do us all a favour and sell your boat.

ps. You CAN go for electronics for passage plannng... and commercial vessels do so... but they have dedicated marine computers, plus backup systems, and the whole lot is operated by folk who could do it all manually with pencil and paper - the closest any recreational skipper should get is using something like PCPlanner on a laptop ALONGSIDE A PAPER CHART BACKUP.

 

[Hurricane]

Looking at another thread, it seems that you are already enrolled on a course.
Dont worry, David will sort you out.

Having said that, gregandginas makes it sound a whole lot more complicated.
Yes, I agree that you need to know the basics of navigation without the use of modern electronics, but I completely dissagree with his comments about how modern electronics work on a mobo.

In answer to your main question, there is a very simple way to use a chartplotter and autopilot (if fitted). On the Raymarine kit, you simply put the cursor on the place you want to go and press a button that says - go to cursor.

Again, I'm not saying that you dont need to know about all the tides etc, but again modern electronice simplifies everything significantly.

I totally dissagree with the concept that gregandginas comment that the chartplotter is a backup to paper systems. IMO it is absolutely the other way round - the paper systems are there if the electronics systems were to fail.

gregandginas - I assume that you are a rag and stick sailor - I was - but mobos are much easier to navigate - especially on long passages.

 

[jimboooo]

thats a bit harsh isn t it ..she is only asking how it works . shes not saying that she is crossing the channel. i would however agree that to start with a paper chart of your area is well wouth having , you can study that at home in your arm chair. if you try to just point and go , the plotter will take you even across land (as you have prob all ready found out ) . before you spend out on new gizmos make sure you have all the correct safety gear , flares, life jackets,vhf,ropes ,anchor, first aid kit etc one last thing get to know your new boat before you go to far , find out if it is reliable , how quickly it burns fuel etc

 

[gregandginas]

Having said that, gregandginas makes it sound a whole lot more complicated.

I don't think it's that complicated: I don't see why a 12 year old should have any problem getting through dayskipper theory. I'm not even that averse to using software on a laptop to do your basic passage planning and generate your list of waypoints so long as the co-ordinates of any critical waypoints are checked on a paper chart and so long as you are capable of switching seamlessly to pencil and paper if the electronics fail.

What worries me is that anyone would even WANT electronics to do the passage planning in the sense of "find me a course to destination X": the software might well come up with much the same route that you might... but you do actually need to understand WHY that's your route - at the very least what hazards you're avoiding and how you're looking to avoid them.

Simplest scenario: you are obliged to avoid another vessel... and the obvious thing to do, all other things being equal, is to go behind them. Unless you realised that your passage plan was the way it was in order to avoid submerged rocks on that side.... you'd be a damn fool to do anything other than stop.

The important things, to me, are to understand your route... to be aware enough of the hazards to notice if the software is suggesting something daft... and to be prepared for total failure of the electronics at the least convenient moment.

None of it's tough... but it does require an element of application, which is why I find the very notion of wanting a "simpletons" chartplotter, and of wanting a chartplotter to do the skipper's job of choosing a route, just plain frightening.

 

[powerskipper]

simple

Saturday we took full and final possession of our first ever boat and got out all the bits and bobs we aquired with it including a navman 5500 chart plotter. Fantastic!...or so we thought. Until we actually plugged the thing in only to find we seem to need a maritime degree to use it! First reaction was 'Huh?????'
Now, bearing in mind this is our very first boating venture, we honestly thought it would work the same way as a car sat nav (yeh yeh i know there are obvious differences ) i.e put in your destination and it would plot the route for us. How wrong could we be! Please tell me there is a simpletons version on the market where you literally 'point and go'.
This thing seems to be all singing, all dancing and I'm sure it'll even give me a full make over and would be wonderful...for someone who knows what the hell its talking about. As it stands though, we have not a clue.
So, point and go? or am i being really thick?

You have to understand how the chart plotter works,

the gps gives your position as a Lat and long, {grid references} it displays this on a chart plotter screen, a chart from the chip is overlay ed onto the screen showing you were that is on the charts.

Now the GPS can tell you how to get from point A to point B,
IT JUST DRAWS STRAIT LINE FROM ONE TO THE OTHER AND TELLS YOU WHERE TO POINT TO GET THERE.
the GPS cant see the chart is a simplified way to explain it, so if there is an obstruction in the way, say rocks or land masses , it does see them.

You have to tell it where to put the corners or places you want to turn to go round these obstructions to get to your destination. every corners or turning point is called a waypoint {WP}, a place you want to go to on the way,

David will go though some of it, but a basic Nav course or Day skipper theory would help you a lot with this , the GPS is much easier to understand if you know what it is telling yo.

 

[Tidnock]

The boat in question will probably do 40 knots + and cruise at 25, there is no where to put a chart and it will be banging and bashing about in a slight sea plus, it will have at least four great big magnets for the in house entertainment and will be used for short hops.

In my humble opinion (I am only one page ahead of the OP) what is required is a day skipper, learn how to read and navigate from a chart, identify hazards, know how much water is under you, be able to take bearings and plot your position on a chart and then use this knowledge to apply to your plotter. If the plotter fails you will be able to slow down and use your chart and plotting equipment

So with what may be an unreliable compass, no chart table, bouncing around, and at planing speed, there is an argument that you may put yourself and other in danger if you do not use a plotter, with a chart as backup.

In addition to that, ask someone who knows the waters to show you the area, on paper is one thing, reality is another, ask the local to show you hazards whilst you pick them out on the chart, in doing so, you can see what it looks like in the flesh and on paper.

Keep safe, educate yourself, if in doubt dont do it, keep asking lots of questions and dont worry your self out of boating

 

[Solitaire]

So, point and go? or am i being really thick?

Don't fret! Lets walk before we run. I'll explain the basic operation next week. You will need to understand the principles to understand what the plotter is telling you. And no, it's not like the sat nav in car! Although Garmin's new kit will plot a route in to avoid going over land etc. But you will buy a lot of petrol for what it will cost you.

You have had the boat one day, it's the start of a jouney that if you get the basics right will be a great experience. Let's not start worrying about Day Skipper courses and all the rest of it just yet.

Lets get you being able to get on and off your berth safely and explain how the boat moves. You are not going to circumnavigate the world just yet!

Trouble with all the gizmos is that it can lead to confusion for new boaters and those new to navigation. Most people even with a bit of experience don't know how to use them to their full capability anyway. The chart plotter is not a substitute for a good grounding - I have had plotters go wrong on more than one occasion. My trusty companion is in fact a basic Garmin 76 handheld GPS. And you will find that most instructors have them. Tells you all you really need to know and stops you worrying about all the confusing symbols etc.

Plotters are getting so complicated as the software advances that you can get totally bogged down with detail and miss the fundamentals.



Sit tight and all will be revealed in the week.

 

[Hurricane]

I don't think it's that complicated: I don't see why a 12 year old should have any problem getting through dayskipper theory. I'm not even that averse to using software on a laptop to do your basic passage planning and generate your list of waypoints so long as the co-ordinates of any critical waypoints are checked on a paper chart and so long as you are capable of switching seamlessly to pencil and paper if the electronics fail.

What worries me is that anyone would even WANT electronics to do the passage planning in the sense of "find me a course to destination X": the software might well come up with much the same route that you might... but you do actually need to understand WHY that's your route - at the very least what hazards you're avoiding and how you're looking to avoid them.

Simplest scenario: you are obliged to avoid another vessel... and the obvious thing to do, all other things being equal, is to go behind them. Unless you realised that your passage plan was the way it was in order to avoid submerged rocks on that side.... you'd be a damn fool to do anything other than stop.

The important things, to me, are to understand your route... to be aware enough of the hazards to notice if the software is suggesting something daft... and to be prepared for total failure of the electronics at the least convenient moment.

None of it's tough... but it does require an element of application, which is why I find the very notion of wanting a "simpletons" chartplotter, and of wanting a chartplotter to do the skipper's job of choosing a route, just plain frightening.

I wasnt suggesting that you would use a chart plotter to create a route in the same way the (say) a Tom Tom does but a simple go to cursor is something that most motor boaters use especially on long passages. As Tidnock says, in a fast mobo, you dont have the luxury of plotting a position on a chart - by the time you have finished plotting, you could be half a mile away and the time would be better spent looking out.

Personally, I believe that not enough attention is given to electronic navigation in courses like Day Skipper and even the Yachtmaster. I believe that the RYA set the sylabus and they are way out of date with today's technology. For example, you say that avoiding other vessels the best thing is to go behind them. If you are on an open passage (say crossing the channel) with careful use of CPA on a modern radar plotter, you can very safely pass infront of commercial traffic and still keep miles away. And these facilities are available on most of the "off the shelf" systems on today's market.

And as for the dreaded fear argument that everyone puts up "what if it were to fail argument" - I have no less than 3 electronic systems on board before I resort to paper charts. My primary one has never failed.

Sorry, I really do think that the world should wake up to this technology - it here so people should be taught how to use it - safely.

As I said, I'm sure David will address the whole matter during his instruction .

 

[Solitaire]

Sorry, I really do think that the world should wake up to this technology - it here so people should be taught how to use it - safely.

I totally agree. But, and there is always a but. I still belive that knowing why is just as important. We all use calculators and based on our maths grounding, will have an idea if the number "looks" right.

Of course I use the electronics, after all as a company, we have spent the last few years demonstrating the kit in conjunction with Raymarine. And of course are presented with a range of kit on owners own boats.

In the case of YM exams, the "better" examiners make full use of a candidates ability to use elctronic navigational aids. But there will be an occasion when the examiner "fails" the kit and then it's a test.

We will be running specific electronic nav courses starting in the winter, nothing to do with the RYA, but will be a 1 day intro, people can feel free to have more if they want.

You know what you are doing, a huge number don't and don't even know the full extent of what their kit can do. Bit like people and computers really.

There is also the old adage that if don't use it, you lose it.

 

[Hurricane]

We will be running specific electronic nav courses starting in the winter, nothing to do with the RYA, but will be a 1 day intro, people can feel free to have more if they want.

Thats great to hear David, but its a bit of a shame that you have to do it independantly of the RYA.

I know its difficult to set a sylabus that covers all the different types of electronics but they should address this subject somehow. They do it quite well with DSC - again, leaving it to the likes of you to set up the classrooms etc but at least the RYA do have a proper DSC course. Probably because they HAVE to. Something structured should be done with modern Nav aids so that schools like you can "sing from the same hymsheet". It should also be kept up to date as new technology emerges - AIS for example.

Sorry you are talking to someone who doesnt think very much of the RYA - and I've had my "run ins" with them.

 

[Tidnock]

I suppose some people want to be taught the "old methods" as they consider using their navigation skills as part of the fun, which I can understand, also, for whatever reasons, the RYA cannot assume everybody has access to electronic equipment.

 

[gregandginas]

Personally, I believe that not enough attention is given to electronic navigation in courses like Day Skipper and even the Yachtmaster. I believe that the RYA set the sylabus and they are way out of date with today's technology.

First up, whilst I don't know the instructor in question... I'm much reassured by the fact that he's involved: the website and the posts suggest that this newbie is going to be well advised. My only reservation is about leaving day skipper theory: that's something rather seperate from the practical boat handling and seamanship learning curve... and I'm not sure it's "running before you can walk" to start getting your head around navigation early on!

I did my Yachmaster theory this winter and would concede, immediately, that electronic navigation didn't figure hugely. I'm OK with that though: whilst I'm quite comfortable with technology (and would happily work from PCPlotter on a laptop linked to a small chartplotter at the helm) the key point, for me, is that I'd not be significantly better off than an experienced skipper on an adjacent boat who's not bothered with any of the technology.

Your argument that the technology is here and that people should learn to use it safely strikes me as sound, at least to the extent of understanding basics like cross track error and CPA. What I don't accept is that anyone inexperienced should be passage planning on the hoof, with the vessel travelling at 40 knotts.

Of course, experienced skippers in familiar waters in the right conditions should certainly be excused a rather laid back approach to such matters - but by and large that's going to be in situations where they'd know exactly what their options were no matter what cropped up. That said... I'd hope any such approach was based on a number of years taking time to prepare passage plans more formally!

ps. Some interesting views from converts here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2209741#post2209741

 

[MapisM]

wanting a chartplotter to do the skipper's job of choosing a route, just plain frightening.

This debate has beed probably done to death, but I still can't help wondering about which planet do the peeps who are freightened by the dependency on technology actually live in.
Don't you ever use airplanes? Or even cars?
Don't you ever have medical examinations?
I'd rather be freightened by a skipper who can't properly read a radar, than by one who relies just on the chartplotter for his route.

 

[gregandginas]

I still can't help wondering about which planet do the peeps who are freightened by the dependency on technology actually live in.

So long as you know the reasons the software proposes a route and have the wit to recognise when something about the route ain't clever then allowing the waypoints to be auto-generated strikes me as reasonable, but if you're going to understand your route fully you might as well choose it yourself.

As for the reliability side of things: fine with commercial grade hardware and systems as found on supertankers (with high quality, professional serviced systems with built in backups, operated by seasoned yachmasters)... but not so fine with recreational grade kit.

 

[MapisM]

So long as you know the reasons...

'salright, of course also a doctor using a computed axial tomography system MUST know which buttons to press, as well as an Airbus 380 commander.
But as a matter of fact, both of them rely 100% on computers these days, and surely the first couldn't give any meaningful diagnosis without them, whilst the latter would probably be in trouble to get anywhere near a strip to land - not to mention that even if he could, he wouldn't get any response from the plane unless its computers are doing their job.

And I beg to disagree also on reliability: chartplotters worth just a few hundred quids are extremely reliable these days, and even a mobile phone can be used as a backup to them, anyhow.
I can't remember to have read of one single accident due to a GPS failure, neither in commercial nor in pleasure boats.

 

[AndieMac]

From where I'm sitting, it appears like the freshly qualified yatchmaster theorist just wanted to kick the newbie (yawn, yawn), and what a stimulating agruement he put up!

 

[lisilou]

What I don't accept is that anyone inexperienced should be passage planning on the hoof, with the vessel travelling at 40 knotts.

Firstly, thankyou all very much for your advice...great as ever
Second, to Gregandginas, I really have to defend myself just a little as 'this frightening newbie' (my name is Lisa btw)...
To be honest, before we take her out at break neck speed towing our jet ski and doughnut...we just wanna practice parking, not scraping the bumpers and making sure we tie the stringy things (ropes i think they're called) to the posts properly!!
Of course we have absolutely no intention of taking the boat out at all until we have done our PB2 and much less at 40 knots. Experience is key and we will only get that with time and by asking questions of the experienced and yes, some of those questions are going to sound absurd to some but it's a comfort to me that I feel able to ask those questions...stupid or otherwise.
That said Gregandginas, I appreciate most of what you have pointed out so thankyou

Lisa

 

[nonitoo]

Lisa,

Use the electronics for goodness sake! That's why you bought them.

You'll enjoy the whole business much more after a bit of training and having a backup paper chart (perhaps a smaller scale one) offers reassurance and also gives you the 'bigger' picture.

It is also quite fun planning the route on paper (rubbers are of great use there) and you also know what is 'lurking' off the edge of the screen.

Tom

 

[gregandginas]

Hi Lisa,

Apologies if I've come across as having anything against anyone "asking questions [...] some of [which] are going to sound absurd": I'm also here to learn from the experience of others... and this time last year I was asking absurd questions on the navigation front - in my case looking for overly complicated navigational solutions.

I guess I took exception to what seemed to be a desire to skip the learning curve: to have a "simpleton's" chartplotter simply remove all the responsibility for actually being a skipper - an attitude which does seem all too common around the coast, not least amongst folk who seem to think a powerful motor and a vessel that shift at a great rate somehow turns the sea into a big-kid's playground.

Seems to me there's no shortcut to experience... and that screwing up along the way is (alas) part and parcel of learning through experience... but as I see it there's never any real excuse for not understanding the theory - hence suggesting dayskipper.

Putting it into practice is obviously a whole different ball game... and is obviously the more important ball game... but at least if you know what you SHOULD be doing, you can struggle purposefully when things start going wrong

Greg.