Sander, air powered with water flush ???

[sarabande]

i saw one very like these, today.

https://shoptoolreviews.com/automot...way-with-hutchins-water-bug-iii-sander/34042/


They seem to be the answer to the problem of removing /flattening/polishing anti-fouling , and oxidised GRP and to eliminate the dust problem. Collecting particles on the ground with weed fabric ?


What are the panels views please ?

 

[thinwater]

For bottom paint, why not a vacuum attachment for the sander? Very common, no clean-up?

Most marinas here (US) favor vacuum over wet.

 

[sarabande]

Thanks TW. With any dry system I think the centrifugal action of the rotating/reciprocating head will chuck out particles of dust. into the operator's vicinity and poss onto neighbouring boats. Easy to check if one has a strobe light. Worthy of a test in your shop ?

If the suction cleaner is fitted with HEPA filter bag, that's fine for dust which is sucked up, but it's the micro/nano bits that escape from the work head which concern me. Those demand a full face respirator as well as a suction cleaner.

The wet process seems intrinsically safer as output is localised to the water run-off, and can be contained on Tyvek type sheets (or disposable similar) immediately under the work area.

Just looking for the most environmentally effective system (which may not be the most "commercial " one.

 

[lw395]

I've used a mains orbital sander for wet sanding.
It's more sensible if the boat can either be heeled or turned upside down.
It does throw slurry over a fair area.
I used a controlled flow of water from a can and a small-bore hose.
Feeding water direct to the sander would be more elegant.

I think people are too keen to default to power tools.
Even 'hard' AF is not very hard to sand.
There is something to be said for 'stop looking at toolporn and just do the job'.
Get a rubber block and selection of w&d paper and get on with it.

But yes, that looks like a good tool.
Commercially, better than hand sanding I'd guess. How much £?

A 'cordless' sander run from an external DC supply might be an option?

 

[Dan Tribe]

I bought a 9.5CFM compressor from Aldi specifically for this work but found that it didn't really have enough grunt. Sanders use a lot of air and I had to keep pausing to let it catch up. The constant noise also annoyed the neighbouring boat owners. Soon went back to wet sanding handraulically. Grit your teeth and get stuck in, nothing like the joy of getting antifouling paste in your armpit and other places on a freezing day. The compressor is handy for loads of other stuff though.

 

[sarabande]

I would be very unhappy about mixing mains electricity and a hose. A DC 12v sander might be OK, but the benefit of the pukka version is that water is injected at the centre of the pads and works its way outwards. Still a risk (nay a certainty) of water getting into a 12v motor and knackering it. And I have a reasonably good compressor already.

Yes, the reliance on power tools is rather sad, and I should enjoy the artisan ethical aspects of boat ownership, and grind my own pigments from rock and cast barnacle removing tools on a nearby fire powered by a bellows made by hand from an ox that I have personally slaughtered, but I have a long drive to the boat and want to sort out the hull cleaning ASAP, so that when it gets colder, I can sit inside and fettle in the warm.

I shall prolly sell the wet sander afterwards, as I can't find a rentable one, and cannot commit to dates easily.

 

[Dan Tribe]

I would be very unhappy about mixing mains electricity and a hose. A DC 12v sander might be OK, but the benefit of the pukka version is that water is injected at the centre of the pads and works its way outwards. Still a risk (nay a certainty) of water getting into a 12v motor and knackering it. And I have a reasonably good compressor already.

Yes, the reliance on power tools is rather sad, and I should enjoy the artisan ethical aspects of boat ownership, and grind my own pigments from rock and cast barnacle removing tools on a nearby fire powered by a bellows made by hand from an ox that I have personally slaughtered, but I have a long drive to the boat and want to sort out the hull cleaning ASAP, so that when it gets colder, I can sit inside and fettle in the warm.

I shall prolly sell the wet sander afterwards, as I can't find a rentable one, and cannot commit to dates easily.

Sorry, I hadn't properly appreciated the water supply bit, looks like a good addition to a plain air fed sander. I think you will still have the issue with needing a large compressor and the delight of dirty water running up your arm and out of your trouser bottoms though. Noise and spray should also be considered. Looks like a nice gadget, I'm tempted.

 

[zoidberg]

Sara, you should have been in bed at 02:48. Doancha ever sleep?

 

[NormanS]

I think I would find that holding up a device which weighs 2lbs 4oz, plus the weight and inconvenience of an air supply, and a water supply, up against the bottom of the boat, to be rather less than fun.
I wet sand the bottom of our boat every year, using one of these pole mounted universally jointed sanding thingies, with a gauze abrasive. I'm not taking off masses of antifouling, I just don't want it to build up.

 

[Rich T]

I use one of these https://www.drapertools.com/product/19897/Orbital-or-Jitterbug-Air-Sander
Being orbital it does not throw the slurry all over the place, but like all air driven sanders is fairly air hungry. I have a large compressor but even then it runs out of puff after about ten minutes, although whilst I power wash off the slurry, it has recovered. I can do a 9m yacht in about an hour. 80 or 100 grit wet and dry cuts through antifoul quickly enough. I see it is being discontinued, pity, mine has served me well.

 

[thinwater]

Why comment on vacuum sanding or the practicalities unless you have actually used one? They are universal in the US. Maybe you should ask yourself why?

Yes, many wear a mask, but there is practically no dust. Yes, many wear suits, but it really is hardly needed. It's just policy, driven by OHSA and liability concerns. As for the weight of the hose, it is the lightest corrugated stuff available, just a few ounces at most. It just looks big. Because the vacuum pulls the dust away, the paper does not foul as often.

I'll be finished before you get the tarps spread out. And I won't have to wash the slurry off the boat. Just dump the vacuum.

It is the pro choice.

 

[sarabande]

TW, I have used dry sanding on many land-based projects with several different tool makes kitted out with suction. It's the way that the workface spits out particles, that I don't like, and don't want to happen. The water system looks as if it will bind particles with the water at the source. I reckon it's easier to control particle-laden water than it is particle laden air. I might rig up a plastic sheet underneath the boat and a little bilge pump to collect the dirty water into a tub which then empties into the yard's settlement and treatment tank. "Every little helps" as one of our supermarket adverts say.


NormanS
As for the weight of the sander. I have Makita disc polisher which is rather heavy, too. I attach a bungy cord to a carabiner at the boat end, and the polisher mass is taken up by the cord which gives about 3ft working range with very little 'weight'. A bit fussy shifting the crab every 5 mins, but it saves the trapezoids and the rotator cuff.

 

[thinwater]

TW, I have used dry sanding on many land-based projects with several different tool makes kitted out with suction. It's the way that the workface spits out particles, that I don't like, and don't want to happen. The water system looks as if it will bind particles with the water at the source. I reckon it's easier to control particle-laden water than it is particle laden air. I might rig up a plastic sheet underneath the boat and a little bilge pump to collect the dirty water into a tub which then empties into the yard's settlement and treatment tank. "Every little helps" as one of our supermarket adverts say.


NormanS
As for the weight of the sander. I have Makita disc polisher which is rather heavy, too. I attach a bungy cord to a carabiner at the boat end, and the polisher mass is taken up by the cord which gives about 3ft working range with very little 'weight'. A bit fussy shifting the crab every 5 mins, but it saves the trapezoids and the rotator cuff.

Fair enough. I'm not sure I agree that it is actually lower impact, once I consider the tarps, water treatment and sludges, and the removal of slurry from the work surface, and it is more work. Better vacuum equipment is needed. But it is a well reasoned answer.

I don't think I have every seen anybody wet sand bottom paint in the US. Some yards actually loan out the vacuum rigs. I was lent a rig once with my vacuum conked out half way through. Nice of them, but it also kept their yard clean.

Working out the geometry is different for every boat. With multihulls you mostly avoid the overhead factor (much of the works is under hand), but there is more distance to cover (two hulls).

 

[NormanS]

TW, I have used dry sanding on many land-based projects with several different tool makes kitted out with suction. It's the way that the workface spits out particles, that I don't like, and don't want to happen. The water system looks as if it will bind particles with the water at the source. I reckon it's easier to control particle-laden water than it is particle laden air. I might rig up a plastic sheet underneath the boat and a little bilge pump to collect the dirty water into a tub which then empties into the yard's settlement and treatment tank. "Every little helps" as one of our supermarket adverts say.


NormanS
As for the weight of the sander. I have Makita disc polisher which is rather heavy, too. I attach a bungy cord to a carabiner at the boat end, and the polisher mass is taken up by the cord which gives about 3ft working range with very little 'weight'. A bit fussy shifting the crab every 5 mins, but it saves the trapezoids and the rotator cuff.

The bungy cord system works well for work on the topsides, but I don't see it working for sanding under the bottom of the boat.

 

[lw395]

One year I wet-sanded the bottom of the boat soon after it was hauled out. Got a nice finish.
Come February, the nice smooth finish had mostly crazed and I scraped it off in big flakes using a 'pound shop chisel'.

 

[zoidberg]

Spent Friday helping - er, getting in the way - another forumeer shift his boat from a muddy, leaf-strewn mooring to a muddy, leaf-strewn boatyard half a dozen miles up a muddy Cornish creek, there to be hauled unceremoniously out for the winter, and fettled. All that in freezing rain and sleet, which turned the Devon Expressway and its ratruns into an earlydawn of car carnage. The MadMaxs were out in their dozens, doing dodgems at 80......

I watched the yardies manage the haulout up the steep ramp, then the youngest made a start on scraping off basket-ball sized clumps of mussels from the hull and keel. He hacked away with a paint scraper until the foreman turned up with the right tools...."Put that thing away," he told the lad, as he handed over a more suitable implement. "This is a two-shovel job!"

Mounds of Cornish crustaceans crashed and crackled onto the concrete. Little crabs scuttled away. "There's a few good suppers in that lot," quoth the foreman. "The French eat 'em, I hear. Make soup. Sure you don't want to take some home wi' you?"

"That's not been scraped for a while", muttered another bystander, his own boat just tidily tucked away earlier. "Three years ago," I agreed. "I did it. A subject fit for a Mike Peyton cartoon."

He nodded in recognition, his smile broadened, and we fell to reminiscing of the 'good old days' when PBO/YM editors were a central part of the community, rough sailors like us - Des Sleightholme, Denny Desoutter, Geoff Pack, George Taylor - who shared a joke, a good banter, or an interesting tale. We two old dogs 'sniffed tails' a bit longer, registering kinship, nodded we'd 'look out for the next time', then headed off home into the gathering dark and rain.

 

[Marine Reflections]

i saw one very like these, today.

https://shoptoolreviews.com/automot...way-with-hutchins-water-bug-iii-sander/34042/


They seem to be the answer to the problem of removing /flattening/polishing anti-fouling , and oxidised GRP and to eliminate the dust problem. Collecting particles on the ground with weed fabric ?


What are the panels views please ?

This will work for normal surface correction such as the flatting back of clear coats etc with very fine grits (1200 - 6000) in this type of use there isnt much waste product, but when the waste is increased by using more coarse grits for bottom paint removal (80-100) things will get messy and cloggy real quick.
I'm not sure it would remove the waste from the working face fast enough whereas dry would. If it did, it would probably do so through rotation, then you have wet being flung.
The machine has a very small orbit, again used more for fine depth correction rather than surface removal. As it's not forced rotation, any decent pressure and you'll be relying on the very small orbit alone to do the work, basically trying to vibrate the paint off.

I could see something similar working if an additional wet extraction unit was combined, added geared/forced rotation with a larger orbit this may then remove the swarf fast enough.

I'd certainly normally opt for dry removal.
A Henry/any hoover is better than no extraction but it's by no means up to date or sufficient enough these days, certainly when sanding nasties.
As an example (if sanding a hull down) I use two Festool Rotex sanders; the 90mm and the 150mm (both have forced DA rather than rotational DA, so when you apply decent pressure the rotation aspect doesn't stop. With a decent Festool extraction unit coupled with mesh sanding discs it's a very effective and fast method.
You can see the removal process in real time so less chance of sanding beyond the required depth, as TW states: dry is the pro choice, but I can see things changing, certainly if a few tweaks such as wet extraction was incorporated.