Sails - when are they worn out?

[SnaxMuppet]

I apologise if this is a bit of a basic question but I bought my first yacht this year, a 5 year old Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 32.2) and it has the original sails.

Now, bearing in mind that we do not race and that performance is not a critical factor, when should we think about replacing the sails?

Would we really get that much performance out of a new set of sails if we are just cruising and, to be honest, only use our sails half of the time we are on the water anyway what with no wind or wind in the wrong direction!!!

I hate to think that I have £1000-£1500 to spend when I might have not noticed much difference (apart from appearance that is).

So, when should I replace my sails? How do I tell that the current sails are shot? What are the tell-tail signs that a sail replacement is due?

 

[Lakesailor]

If it looks like this it's knackered.

Funnily enough (and that isn't really fair as the topping lift is still on) it would still drive the boat at 5.5 knots (18 footer) with that.

Before and after.

 

[BAtoo]

There is more to it than just speed & looks - although both will improve with new sails. Old sails become baggy - see LS's photo - which mean you are unable to flatten them if the wind rises which means they are overpowered & will induce excess heeling of the boat; then you reef earlier & probably go slower as you will be under-canvassed.
We really noticed the difference when we used our old sails as "winter" sails; boat ws awful; falling over, not pointing etc etc - soon gave that idea up!!

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Arny,

No need to worry for some time yet; a reasonable set of sails that have not been raced or over stressed on a regular basis will for many years.

We were still hanging up our 15 year old main in cruise mode till we sold her, the boat not just the main.

Common sense will save you plenty, never stow a wet sail, keep em clean and dry, check the stitching from time to time and replace it early rather than later.
any worn areas should be repaired or protected before they develop into a major cost item. Always take care when trimming not to over stress the sails. Reefing early is safer, faster and more comfortable than reefing 'when you have to'.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[MIKE_MCKIE]

In a similar position, boat 30+ sails of uncertain vintage, but before the first change in telephone numbers in Uk anyway, ie OLD! Took them into one of the sail lofts for a valet & report on condition. Genoa needed a new UV strip & both needed small (several inches) of re stitching, but the loft said that old as they were, they were perfectly ok for cruising use & would NOT recommend replacement unless I was looking to race. The whole valet, UV strip, stitching & storage over the winter cost about £130 & saved me well over £1000, so believe it was well worth it. Maybe you should do the same. I believe that if you put the sails in for a valet & they are knackered any reasonable sailmaker will not charge for the inspection if he is going to sell you a new set of sails. Just make sure it is a reputable firm & don't tell them you are/maybe getting new sails until AFTER the report!
Best of luck, hope you save money.

 

[Evadne]

When I had to replace main and No. 1 genoa in successive years, I noticed a date marked on the tack of the Genoa "Banks sails 1967". That was in 1987, and the "new" main and genoa (and No.2 in 1989) are still going strong with a bit of maintenance from time to time. The spinnaker and No. 3 are rarely used and probably date from 1963.

 

[Robin]

At 5 years old they should be OK but all new boats come with factory supplied sails that are built to a price rather than ultimate performance, that is even true of the so called up market boats and sailmakers. The sails will not fall apart but they will stretch out of shape and performance suffers, less noticeable on a cruiser maybe except as someone else has said in prodicing more weather helm, heeling poorer pointing angle etc. The amount of stretch depends on the loads involved and the amount of use I would guess. Heavily loaded sails as on larger boats and/or with higher aspect ratio as with taller rigs would have racers or cruiser/racers looking at high tech woven Dacrons or laminate materials to prevent this wrecking the shape but on new boats you get the basic cloths.

Sails that are 'OK' and many years old may well be very useable, but believe me you would be amazed at how a new suit would improve things.

One final comment (been there and got the T shirt) is consider how long you will keep the boat, putting new sails on and sellling the following year is very nice for the new owners! How much nicer to have had the best of new sails for your period of ownership.

 

[Lakesailor]

[ QUOTE ]
consider how long you will keep the boat, putting new sails on and sellling the following year is very nice for the new owners! How much nicer to have had the best of new sails for your period of ownership.

[/ QUOTE ] Absolutely. I put a new main on my boat straight away. The headsail I've left for a year and improved it's set and sheet angles, but avoided the temptation to go to a roller headsail. If I replace it I may go like for like. But will do it sooner rather than later as I want the benefit for myself.

 

[ChrisE]

A pro told me the following:

If you have Dacron or similar, ie not modern laminates, I believe that one practical test is to see if you can blow through the sail cloth. Ie put sail to mouth and blow, does air escape through sail? If it does, sail needs to go.

I've not had this verified other than I've tried it out on old and new sails and it seems to hold true.

 

[temptress]

To decide you need to consider:

How much use have they had?
Have they been used for racing?
What material are they made of?
Hoy are they cut? (Cross, radial etc...)
Is the main fully battened?
How have then been treated?
Have they been kept covered?
Stored ashore?
Kept on the boat all winter exposed?

I've used sail that are 30 years old that have been fine and I seen sails that are 3 years old that are shot.

Given that they are only 5 years old, you don't race and the boat is not used every day or chartered then IMO they should be fine. A trip to the sailmaker should sort out any issued. Sails can be repaired and some (cross cut usually) even recut to give them a new lease of life.


If you don't know yourself weather the sails are worn out then I would suggest that they are fine. Take them off the boat and get a local sailmaker to lay them out in his loft, give you an opinion and explain why. Most sailmakers will do this for you cause they want your business over the years. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[franky]

You lucky bugger to be able to sail for half the time you are out.On this years cruise from Royan to Cadiz (A total of 27 cruising days) I managed about 24 hours sailing in total.
Have your sails valeted by a reputable sail maker and ask the to give you a condition report.
Save your money there is alsways something else to spend it on.

 

[Sea Devil]

Unless you are racing, sails are worn out when you can push your finger or thumb though any part of them.. Sure they may get baggy or out of shape but if you can sail with them, then other than for cosmetic reasons, why spend all that money? You can get a sailmaker to tighten them up and remake the leach.

Michael

 

[GBR562]

The jib will always be the first sail to be replaced.
With dacron sails the resin coating degrades and cracks over time.
The sail stretches at the seams and where the resin no longer supports the cloth.
This is why the sail should never be folded in the same way.
It breaks the resin down and stretches the fibres.
Rolled is best.
Stuffed as loosely as possible is better than folded.

When is it shot?
When you can't set it properly.
Remember that most of the work is carried out in the top half to top third of each sail and often whilst the lower sections of the sail look dirty and tired the bit that is doing most of the work is fine.

 

[gardenshed]

I've seen brand new sails that were rubbish and old ones (10+years) that were OK.
What are the dangers of old sails:
1. stitching gives way or the sail splits/rips causing you a major problem. Usually happens at the most inconvenient time or dangerous time
2. sail gets very baggy and you can't tweak it to get the shape that you need to sail efficiently

Get a winter valet from a sailmaker and condition report. If possible, get a sailmaker out on the boat to look at the sail and (if you need it) assess its condition when in use.

Sails can be re-cut (easiest with cross-cut sails) and chafe repaired, stitching replaced, additional strengthening added. Most decent sailmakers will help re-condition and if the only response is "buy a new one from me" then speak to another sailmaker.

Good sails properly set make sailing easier, faster and give you more confidence & control of the boat in heavy weather.

When are they worn out, when you don't have confidence that they will perfom reliably upwind in a blow

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

One thing that you should consider carefully is how you are setting the sails that you have. Are they correctly bent to the spars? Is the tension correct? Can they be made to set better?

Judging <u>solely from what I can see in the photos</u> that were posted by Lakesailor I would suggest that the photo on the left ('old') shows a main that is way too tight along the foot while there does not seem to be enough tension on the luff. Notice the severe creasing from the clew to the gate of the mast? I notice also that there is less distance 'clew to boom end' on the 'old' than is apparent on the 'new'.

I emphasize that my comments are based purely on what I can 'read' from the photos. Perhaps there were other reasons that LS would know about, since he took the shots.

Of course a new main will set better! If nothing else there would be no tendency to pull on the outhaul for all you're worth. You've just paid xxxx money for it, no?

I would suggest that you play around with the sails that you have for at least one more season. See how adjustments to foot and luff tension, as well as twist, affect setting and the boat's performance. That way you'll be getting used to the boat and ensuring that you are getting the best out of the sails that you have.

Then decide! After all, when you have a flat on your car you don't rush out to buy new tires; you see if there is a puncture that can be repaired and reinflated. At least, that is what my budget and I would do. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[SnaxMuppet]

I want to thank everyone who posted you advice and comments. You are all stars!

I think it is sensible to do as several of you have suggested and get them valeted. I am sure that with a bit of attention they are good for some time yet from what I can tell from the various comments/photos etc. The stiching is a bit tatty in places and the batten pockets are coming unstiched in places but perhaps that can be sort without huge expense.

The question now is where do I take them? I am in Plymouth.

 

[Lakesailor]

[ QUOTE ]

Judging <u>solely from what I can see in the photos</u> that were posted by Lakesailor I would suggest that the photo on the left ('old') shows a main that is way too tight along the foot while there does not seem to be enough tension on the luff. Notice the severe creasing from the clew to the gate of the mast? I notice also that there is less distance 'clew to boom end' on the 'old' than is apparent on the 'new'.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you may have guessed I didn't try to make the old sails look good. However, if you look at the first shot you'll see that the bolt rope is actually rope and therein lies the problem. It's shrunk. Although the luff of the sail seems slack the rope is bowstring tight. Pulling out the tack seemed the only way to stop the leech just folding over itself. Even so the boom is drooping. I did try it most ways, but the fact there was more sail than bolt rope always made it a compromise. Besides, I'd planned on a new main straight away anyway. Although the old sail did power the boat, there weren't many options when the wind got up.
I had the new sail cut taller but with a shorter foot to allow more choice in outhaul tension. This means that the boom is lower than the band, but I hardly think there are any class races for Foxcubs these days and I don't race, so I'm not too bothered. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

I think that I might have come across asswise - not the first time! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

In my post I had written:

"I emphasize that my comments are based purely on what I can 'read' from the photos. Perhaps there were other reasons that LS would know about, since he took the shots."

Evidently there were 'other reasons' as you have just indicated; so technically I was correct.

The intention was not to throw a slur (does one 'throw' slurs?/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif) on you or your sails but to encourage the inquirer to explore all avenues pertaining to sail trim and adjustments before he splashes out on a new suit. The reference to the photos was simply because they were there.

I'm not sure if you feel offended: if you are then please accept that it was not intentional.

 

[Lakesailor]

Chill out. The old sail was awful and the new one is in a different league. You are meant to think the old was was untrimmable. Which you did.
no harm done. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Guest]

Look up Westaway Sails they are somewhere near Buckfastliegh