Sailing within separation zones

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Selene's Dragon

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Many comments are many concerning the need to cross separation zones steering a course perpendicular to the zone, but are there any issues with a yacht folowing the separation zone. Does a sailing yacht have the right to sail parallel to and within the zone (in the correct direction) ?
 
Every right. But they be big boys coming' up your ass, and at a speed like you wouldn't believe. Just keep looking aft.

A better plan would be to sail parallel to the zone, but outside it. And then to cross at right angles when you need to.

What's the passage?
 
Rule 10 concerns TSS.

(e) A vessel other than a crossing vessel or a vessel joining or leaving a lane shall not normally enter a separation zone or cross a separation zone except:
(i) in cases of emergency to avoid immediate danger
(ii) to engage in fishing within a separation zone.

Incidentally, I don't think the court would accept as mitigation the fact that you had a mackerel line out the back.
 
BelleSerene said:
Every right. But they be big boys coming' up your ass, and at a speed like you wouldn't believe. Just keep looking aft...
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Because it is still up to you to keep out the way:

Rule 10 (j) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.
 
To the OP: with respect I think you might possibly be confusing Traffic Lanes with Separation Zones and Separation Lines, which are the three basic ingredients of a TSS, Traffic Separation Scheme. (Also look up Precautionary Areas, and ITZ's or Inshore Traffic Zones).
You don't need to cross a Separation Zone at any particular angle.
You should cross a Traffic Lane with the ship's head (not the course through the water or over the ground) 90 degrees to the general flow of traffic, as nearly as practicable.
You are definitely allowed to sail, bearing in mind that you must not impede.
Might I politely suggest a revision of the Rules, MCA MGN 364 (google it, free download) is very helpful as well. There are probably some very useful online guides put out by organizations such as the PLA, HMCG (Dover in particular), London VTS, and others, I haven't looked for a while, thanks for a reminder!
Cheers Jerry
 
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Twister_Ken said:
Rule 10 concerns TSS.

(e) A vessel other than a crossing vessel or a vessel joining or leaving a lane shall not normally enter a separation zone or cross a separation zone except:
(i) in cases of emergency to avoid immediate danger
(ii) to engage in fishing within a separation zone.

Incidentally, I don't think the court would accept as mitigation the fact that you had a mackerel line out the back.
Click to expand...

There's something about joining and leaving lanes at shallow angles too I seem to remember. When my close hauled course was at about 20 degrees to the lane on one occasion I convinced myself that I was joining at a fine angle, sailing along the lane and then leaving at a fine angle.:eek: As has been said a good lookout astern is essential and be careful not to impede large vessels.
 
It is perhaps worth remembering that different nationalities interpret differently the emphasis of certain words in the ColRegs. This is especially relevant i.r.o. the TSS Rule 10, where we Brits tend to consider 'shall' and 'shall not' as permissive and discretionary to some degree. The Germans - and their marine police - perceived such as mandatory.

Much the same applies, in my understanding, to Rule 10c.

'A vessel shall, so far as practicable, avoid crossing traffic lanes but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.'

I've had it explained to me that 'so far as practicable' and 'if obliged to do so' involves the concept of utter necessity and not simply convenience, as we Brits tend to prefer..... So, 'When in Dutch/Belgian/German waters, do as the Dutch/Belgians/Germans do'


TSS.jpg



NoordzeeScheepvaartroutes.png
 
l'escargot said:
Because it is still up to you to keep out the way:

Rule 10 (j) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.
Click to expand...
When I'm mixing it in the shipping lanes I tend to find the merchantmen are real gents, without fail they hoot me about 5 times to let me know they've seen me, this is often followed by a wave from the OOW on the wing as they pass by.
 
oldbilbo said:
It is perhaps worth remembering that different nationalities interpret differently the emphasis of certain words in the ColRegs. This is especially relevant i.r.o. the TSS Rule 10, where we Brits tend to consider 'shall' and 'shall not' as permissive and discretionary to some degree. The Germans - and their marine police - perceived such as mandatory.

Much the same applies, in my understanding, to Rule 10c.

'A vessel shall, so far as practicable, avoid crossing traffic lanes but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.'

I've had it explained to me that 'so far as practicable' and 'if obliged to do so' involves the concept of utter necessity and not simply convenience, as we Brits tend to prefer..... So, 'When in Dutch/Belgian/German waters, do as the Dutch/Belgians/Germans do'

+1 on that, it follows on from their 'Commercial traffic priority' viewpoint/mindset for inland waterways really, whereas we have far less commercial traffic in UK compared to them.
Click to expand...
 
A slight angle on this (sorry): when we had the solicitors drawing up a contract they changed all the bits where we had said "will" to "shall" as they said it was a stronger, more definite meaning. We were happily unaware of this and thought it meant the same thing, apparently not to the legal mind.
 
BelleSerene said:
Every right. But they be big boys coming' up your ass, and at a speed like you wouldn't believe. Just keep looking aft.

A better plan would be to sail parallel to the zone, but outside it. And then to cross at right angles when you need to.

What's the passage?
Click to expand...


All absolutel sense thanks, That's exactly what I thought just hadn't seen it discussed anywhere.
 
Daedelus said:
A slight angle on this (sorry): when we had the solicitors drawing up a contract they changed all the bits where we had said "will" to "shall" as they said it was a stronger, more definite meaning. We were happily unaware of this and thought it meant the same thing, apparently not to the legal mind.
Click to expand...

Compare: I shall drown and no one will save me.
With: I will drown and no one shall save me.
 
Wandering Star said:
When I'm mixing it in the shipping lanes I tend to find the merchantmen are real gents, without fail they hoot me about 5 times to let me know they've seen me, this is often followed by a wave from the OOW on the wing as they pass by.
Click to expand...

Tee hee. Do they slap the inside of their elbows at you, very cheery. One did that to me, but it was he who had not seen my much earlier alteration, cheeky sod.
 
oldbilbo said:
It is perhaps worth remembering that different nationalities interpret differently the emphasis of certain words in the ColRegs. This is especially relevant i.r.o. the TSS Rule 10, where we Brits tend to consider 'shall' and 'shall not' as permissive and discretionary to some degree. The Germans - and their marine police - perceived such as mandatory.
Click to expand...

It may in part be down to a fundamental linguistic difference between English and German. In English, "you must" means you have to do it, just as "Sie müssen" does in German. However, while in English "you must not" means you are forbidden from doing it, "Sie müssen nicht" in German simply means that you are not obliged to. To forbid something, German says "Sie dürfen nicht" = "You are not permitted to".

It's all quite logical, really, but it can lead to lots of confusion when rules written in one language are interpreted by someone who speaks the other better. A German might well think that "You must not sail within the harbour limits" means that it's not obligatory to sail there while a Briton may think that "Sie müssen nicht im Hafen segeln" means that it's not allowed.
 
Seven Spades said:
How does a sailing boat without engine legally cross a TSS if it is facing headwinds?
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Well the strict answer is, it's the skipper's decicion to decide if he (or she) can cross according to the rules, and if he is in doubt he shouldn't try it, but should resort to his alternative back-up plan which he prepared earlier, IN CASE it wasn't possible to cross the TSS when he was approaching it.
You could say, from a passage planning perspective, the situation is comparable to intending to enter a certain port, one which you have looked up and found to have breakers on the bar in one particular wind direction. So you would have a plan B if the wind was looking to be from that quarter when you were approaching, or if the forecast said it was likely to shift that way.
Obviously there are lots of judgement calls involved, examples might be: Your ability to crack along when hard on the wind, and short tack to order, happily weaving between box boats. Are you in a lumbering gaff ketch, short-staffed and half dead with fatigue, or creaming along in a Pogo with a crack racing team, fresh and fit?
It's not a black and white situation in my view, What do others think?
 
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Selene's Dragon said:
All absolutel sense thanks, That's exactly what I thought just hadn't seen it discussed anywhere.
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Thanks. L'escargot is right to point out that you're still under a duty from the Colregs (never mind your inclination to remain alive) to keep out of the way of the big boys.

Don't get lulled into thinking that fishing gives you priority, either. That's commercial fishing: recreational fishing gives you no rights in the Colregs.
 
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