Sailing within separation zones

Seven Spades said:
How does a sailing boat without engine legally cross a TSS if it is facing headwinds?
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The MGN 364, Point 2.11, reads:

"No specific mention is made in Rule 10(j) of a sailing vessel having an auxiliary
engine, however, if such a vessel cannot follow the routeing procedures under sail because of
light or adverse winds, then she should make use of her engines in order to do so, and should
show the appropriate lights, shapes and sound signals for a power-driven vessel.

So if needed, the engine -if available- should be started in order to keep a perpendicular heading etc etc.


What is the legal binding power of MGN's ? Ok MGN are "guidance" and not law, but to what extent can guidance be ignored ? I think it would be difficult for a UK flagged sailboat to claim "ignorance"... but what about other flags ?
 
What does impede mean?

i.e. if a ship in accordance with colregs alters course to avoid me in a traffic lane - without any detriment, have I impeded her?

PS - not an idiot (I hope) just curious
 
Seven Spades said:
How does a sailing boat without engine legally cross a TSS if it is facing headwinds?
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Its quite simple really.
Just hop in your boat and sail across without impeding (getting in the way) of any of the ships using the TSS.

I heard from an old sailor once.
“Rules are there to guide the wise and for the adherence of fools”

Think in terms of practicality. Even a German policeman is unlikely to expect a sailing vessel going from Dover to Calais against the wind, to divert and go all the way down and around the end of the TSS.

Best course to windward.
Choose your tack closest to 90 degrees. If that is 40 deg off so be it or 50 choose the 40.
If it were to be exactly 45 from wind and 90 from general direction of flow this is as close as practical.

Don’t worry the guys on the big boats can figure it out. Sail boats cant sail directly into the wind they go as close as they can. They are unlikely to be confused into thinking you are going to be joining a traffic lane in a 10 or 15 m sailing vessel sailing into the wind 45 deg from the direction of flow.

They might be a bit slower on the uptake when you avoid the dead run on the way back home and sail 30 deg of the general direction of flow.

30 degrees of to avoid a dead run they might not get. But they will figure out a 60 degree approach you are unlikely to be joining the lane.

I would suggest it is wise to avoid sailing with the flow in a lane and choose the inshore route where possible. And definitely less than wise to sail against the general direction of flow in a lane

The separation zone should be avoided altogether unless crossing or joining a lane.

If you are sailing and or less than 20m the big one is don’t impede.

The rest of the questions from angry French, German, Dutch or other law men will only come up if you impede.
 
BelleSerene said:
Don't get lulled into thinking that fishing gives you priority, either. That's commercial fishing: recreational fishing gives you no rights in the Colregs.
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I can see nothing in the IRPCS which relies on whether fishing is being done for profit or not. All I can see is

The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability.​

If someone owned, hypothetically, an old purse seiner and chose to do some purse seining on her way from, to take a couple of examples at random, Preston to Brighton, she would count as a fishing vessel for IRPCS purposes, whether she planned to sell any fish or not.
 
Marmalade said:
What does impede mean?

i.e. if a ship in accordance with colregs alters course to avoid me in a traffic lane - without any detriment, have I impeded her?

PS - not an idiot (I hope) just curious
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If the ship had to alter course or speed to avoid you in your sail boat or vessel les than 20 m. The answer is yes.

To impede means get in the way. Or more specifically allow a close quarters situation to develop. Once risk of collision exists the ship is impeded but must still comply with the rules and if required keep clear.

The complication comes in the difference in perception. what may appear to be a long way from a small boat may be very close for a large ship.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I can see nothing in the IRPCS which relies on whether fishing is being done for profit or not. All I can see is

The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability.​

If someone owned, hypothetically, an old purse seiner and chose to do some purse seining on her way from, to take a couple of examples at random, Preston to Brighton, she would count as a fishing vessel for IRPCS purposes, whether she planned to sell any fish or not.
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I would think the distinction is between angling and fishing - towing a string of mackerel feathers from a pleasure yacht would give you no rights, shooting nets from a working boat probably would.
 
l'escargot said:
I would think the distinction is between angling and fishing - towing a string of mackerel feathers from a pleasure yacht would give you no rights, shooting nets from a working boat probably would.
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I think the distinction is as stated, ie between 'fishing apparatus which restrict(s) manoeuvrability' and 'fishing apparatus which do(es) not restrict manoeuvrability'.
 
parsifal said:
I think the distinction is as stated, ie between 'fishing apparatus which restrict(s) manoeuvrability' and 'fishing apparatus which do(es) not restrict manoeuvrability'.
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I cannot fish and steer at the same time, then again I cannot fish and catch anything, :encouragement:
 
Marmalade said:
What does impede mean?

i.e. if a ship in accordance with colregs alters course to avoid me in a traffic lane - without any detriment, have I impeded her?

PS - not an idiot (I hope) just curious
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Yes, you would have impeded him. All the normal colregs STILL APPLY, but 'not impede' imposes an extra level of obligation on you,which is to demonstrate to him well in advance by your course and speed, that you will not oblige him to alter.
'Not impede' occurs elsewhere. Eg if you are stand on to a vessel constrained by her draught, as shown by her day shape or lights, you could stand on to her and she would be obliged to give way by reducing speed (if possible!) but you would be guilty of breaking the not impede rule.
'Not impede' does not alter the stand on/give way rule, or any others, but puts an extra obligation on the vessel which must not impede.
It's always valuable trying to clarify these words, it can be done!
 
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oldbilbo said:
NoordzeeScheepvaartroutes.png
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Interesting diagram. Where does it come from?
 
Marmalade said:
What does impede mean?

i.e. if a ship in accordance with colregs alters course to avoid me in a traffic lane - without any detriment, have I impeded her?

PS - not an idiot (I hope) just curious
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That, I believe is a very good question. Certainly when I was doing YM theory it was a moot point. If a ship in a 5 mile wide lane alters course by a few degrees for a few minutes can he really say that he was impeded? (Where impede means obstruct, delay, or hinder.) Saying that causing any alteration of course or speed amounts to impeding the other vessel is no doubt the safe assumption but I can see it being difficult to make that stick.
 
DJE said:
That, I believe is a very good question. Certainly when I was doing YM theory it was a moot point. If a ship in a 5 mile wide lane alters course by a few degrees for a few minutes can he really say that he was impeded? (Where impede means obstruct, delay, or hinder.) Saying that causing any alteration of course or speed amounts to impeding the other vessel is no doubt the safe assumption but I can see it being difficult to make that stick.
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It’s a question of scale and perception.
A few degrees may not seam much and a mile may appear to be a long way or a safe distance from the perception of a small vessel.

When dealing with large ships in open sea they have lots of “sea room” and an alteration of course for a small vessel is no big deal to a large ship.

This changes in a traffic scheme. For the large ship the “sea room” is restricted by the requirement to remain in her lane. Additional it is restricted by the presence of other ships using or crossing the lanes.

This restriction may not be apparent to the observer on a small vessel, The large ships may appear to him to be far apart, yet to each other they are in close quarters.

For the watch keeper on a large ship transiting a busy separation scheme like, Dover it is always a situation where they have restricted “sea room”.

To try and give you an idea of the “scale” they are thinking on. The watch keeper is probably using the 12 and 24 mile range while in more open waters and getting down to short range 6 or 12 mile in the Dover area.
The watch keeper on a large vessel will ideally want to detect approaching vessels on the 24 mile range and assess the risk of collision as they get down to the 12 mile range and react by the 6 mile range.

Inside of that you are inside the big ships comfort zone

For the ship’s watch keeper he may well have a dozen or more other large vessels inside that comfort zone.
Most will be going with him. Like heavy traffic on a motorway. The same group of ships slowly converging down to a group. Sometimes half a dozen or more within a couple of miles.

Seams like a lot until you realise they probably all have crash stopping distances of between 1 and 1.5 miles and hard over turning radius of about 0.5 miles.

They tend to end up bunched. Groups doing about the same speed. Often half a dozen within the 3 mile range of each other.

Small alteration of course make a big difference. They are or at least should be constantly monitoring the distance to each other.
One alters a few degrees. two ships running parallel a mile or so apart will start converging, the mile will very for them become half a mile.
One alters a domino effect happens to the others they are constantly jostling for position.

One of the more uncomfortable situations for the OOW on the ship coming up to Dover is when they have a slightly faster ship creeping up on the starboard quarter especially if she is less than a mile to starboard.
Even a very small alteration and the ships will begin to converge.

Making a bold alteration in this situation as require by the rules for a crossing vessel, Is interesting to say the least..
It can be done but it gets attention.

Unfortunately depending upon the personalities on board, there can be occasions where an inexperienced or junior officer may not feel comfortable touching the throttle, sometimes the fear of the reaction from some more senior officer may act as a deterrent. Large ships generally prefer to alter course rather than speed.
 
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