Sailing with a stroppy skipper

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NPMR

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I was acting as navigator on a trip to Eire and asked the skipper to follow a course that missed the Runnel Stone Rocks.

He refused, arguing that we were going the long way round when the other boats in our party (fleet?) were heading closer in (to the rocks!).

Discussion followed but eventually, the other boats were persuaded (via VHF) to move further out to join us.

I asked to be disembarked as I could not walk home from there. We had fewer discussions after that and arrived safely for what turned out to be a memorable cruise.

PS One of the other boats later thanked me for pointing out something they had missed! (And so did another member of our crew!)

Happened to anyone else?
 
"a course that missed the Runnel Stone Rocks."

Am not sure what point you're making - but if there's an inshore passage a good navigator shouldn't hesitate to use it and Heaven help any crew who demur! It's very satisfying to round Cap de la Hague close to the rocks, while dodging inside the Barfleur Race or cutting thro The Minquiers gives a real buzz.

My item for the Favourite Moments thread is sailing through the Gouliot into Havre Goslein with the kite up.
The Everest mentality maybe, but reckless or gung-ho - never.

Perhaps you should call this "sailing with an experienced skipper . . . "
 
I would have thought that an experienced skipper would either agree with the appointed navigator or have plotted the alternate course himself, explaining as he went to pass on his superior knowledge.

Personally, I always err on the side of safety.

That's why I don't like racing; the quest for speed can lead to some very unseamanlike practices and un-acceptable risk taking. My brother races, which maybe why he is always running aground, breaking gear and reporting near misses.
 
You are much braver than me! I always went around The Minquiers. I only started using the north passage out of Chausey after I had followed a friend out.
Allan
 
I know what you mean. Back in the 80's, (pre GPS days- RDF and visible marks only)chasing the leaders across, in the JOG James Cook Series, to finish in St. Malo, we were tempted by what appeared to be a larger hull than ours cutting inside La Grande Etacre, off the western coast of Guernsey.

We drew nearly 6ft and we followed to gain an advantage over those who'd gone outside. It turned out we had followed an Ecume de Mer, a much shallower boat than ours, and a local at that, so we shouldn't have been too surprised when our keel struck a rock and the whole boat visibly vibrated and slowed.

When we turned around to see the rest of the fleet behind us they had turned as one and headed far out to sea. We on the other hand were now surrounded by stalagmites of rock with green sea boiling over them, through which we had to pick our way. This entailed passing between the Hanois light and the island and I found myself choosing which one of these craggy peaks, just awash, which I might safely cling to if we foundered.

I can honestly say I have never been so frightened, not even in the '79 Fastnet, and whilst we all had a good laugh when we got ashore I reckon we were all putting a brave face on what was a highly risky escapade and, in my opinion then and now, very flawed judgement.
 
Correction; "Sailing with a literate skipper"

A serious hazard in the Minquiers (Les Ecrehous and Iles Chausey too) is not being able to find enough room to drop your hook - Osbourne Bay on a fine weekend is deserted by comparison!


Reading a chart, calculating tides and following the pilot book isn't 'brave', it's competent YM level seamanship.
But if the cap fits . . .
 
I would have expected a cordial discussion of the options followed by a mutually agreed course of action! On inshore passages in fully crewed boats these exchanges happen many times a day, it is an important part of running the boat. Each needs to know the issues for when the other falls down dead with a heart attack!

Remember the navigator may not have thought about wind, rig, any engine issues, crew experience and any number of other factors that are perhaps not strictly nav but that the skipper should be aware of and which should shape these kinds of decisions.

IMO, safe but challenging is always more rewarding than just staying miles off any danger.
 
Back in the 80´s, we were 2handing a 36ft classic to Gib. from Villamoura. Mostly headwinds, so we saved time by short tacking inside the rocks off Cape Trafalgar on our way to a rest in Barbate de Franco. we were very tired and it was at night. A couple of years later the owner phoned me and asked if we had actually gone inside as a friend had told him it was not possible at night. I replied that I vividly remembered the night and it was true. There was a bit of a moon and you could see the white surf on the rocks well in time to tack. Not to be recomended!
Andrew
 
Aircraft pilots have a saying:

"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are no old, bold Pilots!"

I think the same goes for sailing; if you take risks - no matter how small - then one day the odds will catch up with you. Of course, you do what you can to change the odds; a passage I wouldn't take (e.g. through Corryvreckan) is perfectly safe with the proper local knowledge. Sometime we have to take a chance, but in that case, we need to reduce the risk as far as possible by use of charts, pilots and the skipper next door who has done it before!
 
Same - ish place

The cardinal W off the Longships wasn't marked on the large or should it be small, scale 5603 series

It is on the larger scale one, which we pulled out after passing it - just!

Was a hefty surprise while being bounced around in the disturbance there to see a huge buoy fine on the starboard bow

Just shows no matter how careful you are - you have to use your wits and keep a good look-out too
 
[ QUOTE ]
if you take risks - no matter how small - then one day the odds will catch up with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you never get out of bed!

The reason I sail is for the challenge of doing something demanding and potentially dangerous, and doing it safely. I think that must be part of why most people sail. Taking an inshore passage when conditions are appropriate is frequently the 'correct' decision - not a bold decision or a risky decision.

Isn't it all about knowing the risks and benefits associated with every decision? You are not gambling with odds that will catch up with you, you are making rational decisions. After all, if you just sit stationary in 1,000' of water, eventually some disaster will strike.
 
So who is, or where do I find, this hallowed experienced and competent skipper or navigator?

I've met those that are more experienced than those that are less experienced, and those that are less experienced than those that are more experienced.

It seems to me it's easy to be experienced when your talking to a novice, and the same man can be found lacking in the company of a master mariner. I'm sure there are those on here that claim to be experienced and competent seaman, but many are probably just scratching the surface of what there is to learn.

All I know is that I know nothing, and enjoy my sailing.

If the skipper appointed you navigator then he should let you navigate. Seems like you were doing the job safely and to the best of your abilities (you got there in one piece I guess?). If those abilities weren't good enough for the old man, then he shouldn't have asked you in the first place.

Seems little point in getting everyone involved and then start undermining them. Someone will always know more, the key is, if there is no danger, for them to keep their mouth shut, or be more diplomatic.
 
Not sure I understand your point. We all have lots to learn. The most experienced can often learn something from the least experienced. If you are just left to get on with it, no-one will learn anything. If you discuss the decision, someone will learn something and both will know what is going on. There need not be any criticism, just a cordial discussion between 2 people interested in the same thing. It is one of the most enjoyable parts of the job.
 
Yes. I sailed as navigator for my boss on a St Malo race. After the finish we had to thread our way through the rocks in the dark. I could see a narrow channel but opted to go outside, adding maybe 300 yds, rather than risk missing my way in an unfamiliar area. We found ourselves diverging from another group who were taking the short cut and the skipper was all for cutting across to join them. I told him he would pile up the boat on the rocks between us and them. Fortunately he accpeted my call and we got in unscathed.

On the way back I gave him a course to steer to pass to the W of Guernsey. It was blowing around F6 easterly and after a while he said 'there's a light ahead, what is it?' After a lot of searching I found it, on Jersey, a good 20° upwind of our course. I asked him what course he was steering and he said he'd aimed off to allow for leeway. I'd already put in a generous allowance for leeway. In my book a course to steer is what you should be seeing on the compass. Of course he blamed me.
 
The perennial navigator problem, can yo check if your instructions are being followed correctly? Not if you stay at your desk you can't - and I suspect that Skipper might have got a bit prickly if he thought you were checking his course steered!

Interesting point. I generally sail alone or with a relatively inexperienced family crew so decisions are mine & I must make the checks to keep us all safe. Fortunately, they all seem to still trust me & our escapades have mostly been minor ones so far.
 
One of the problems on a small boat is that the skipper is involved in "doing".

When, for example, the skipper is on the helm is (s)he the helm, or the skipper?

Nav. should be able to trust helm to steer the course given and helm should trust nav to have done the right thing to come up with that course, but whoever has the con should be able to question either.

It needs some sort of protocol like "As skipper, I am asking if you are quite sure. Tell my you are, and as helm I will shut up and steer the course"
 
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