Sailing to France - VAT and competence documents

[Neil]

Just to be clear, I am UK resident and have EU passport. My boat is about to SSR re-registered.

The point I was making was that if you have an Irish passport, why not just sail where you want and for as long as you want in Europe on your Irish passport; who would care if your boat was on the UK SSR? Given that Ireland has no SSR, who's to know? Fly the Irish flag from your boat - you're Irish, after all.

 

[Neil]

This answer makes 2 assumptions, both of which must be true to make the advice valid.

1. You are a British citizen with a UK passport and no EU citizenship or residency. He has EU citizenship
2. Your boat is registered in the U.K. to you. (SSR or Part 1) With an EU passport, Isn't this redundant in the EU?

First, read Tranonas posts - he is a very reliable and helpful forumite who dispenses sound advice - and has done for the 12 or so years I've been on this forum.

If you want to remain totally above board, with no difficult questions asked, then this will always work when entering a foreign country, France or anywhere else.

1. When you enter their waters hoist the courtesy flag for the country you are entering (France) and a yellow "Q" flag on the starboard spreader of the forward mast.
2. Head directly for a port or marina designated as a port of entry.
3. Dock at the customs quay (if there is one) or the berth you have been assigned by the marina.
4. Take your crew list and all passports, plus your boat papers, insurance, any qualifications, etc. to the authorities.
5. Apply for Temporary admission for the boat and get your passports stamped as entering the EU. No need to have an Irish passport stamped. Having non-EU crew might require such

Once you have your TA paperwork and your passports stamped, then remove the "Q" flag and enjoy the stay - and make sure the boat leaves before 18 months are up. If you intend to keep it in the EU for more than 18 months, arrange an exit/re-entry to reset the temporary admission clock before it runs out.

Worked for me for many years.

 

[westernman]

2. Your boat is registered in the U.K. to you. (SSR or Part 1) With an EU passport, Isn't this redundant in the EU?

In most EU countries you are required to fly an ensign (except at night when at anchor or when in a marina).
If you fly an ensign belonging to a country in which the boat is not registered, that would be fraud.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

If the boat was in the U.K. on B-Day then the boat is now UK goods and has lost it's EU goods status. This only creates issues if the OP is resident in an EU country.

When the boat enters the EU, if the owner presents an EU passport then the authorities might think it needs to go through an import procedure which is unrelated to VAT and it would also raise questions about residency as Temporary Admission into the EU is not available to EU residents.

Only non residents (like UK citizens resident in the UK) will sail through a TA application with few questions being asked - which is why I stipulated the assumption. He is effectively a UK resident bringing the boat into the EU from outside the EU - a classic Temporary Admission case where the French won't care about the VAT or otherwise status of the vessel.

I would advise against using an EU passport on entry as you may be delayed proving that you are UK and not EU resident - especially since most EU citizens resident in the U.K. now have "settled status" which the OP as a dual citizen will probably not have - and which will force presentation of the UK passport anyway. This line of questioning can be avoided by just presenting as a UK citizen.

I have been travelling backwards and forwards on my UK/German passports for a few years now and the rules are simple if you want to avoid scrutiny, use German to exit the EU EU side, and UK to enter the UK UK side, and the opposite going in the other direction.

I used my UK passport to exit once and got questioned over entry and exit stamps (Munich airport) so I had to show my German passport to prove that the lack of stamps didn't matter. They lost interest once I showed both passports.

Entering with goods that have value, like a boat - due to the questions surrounding UK or EU goods, my advice would be to remain a simple UK citizen with a UK passport, and asking for TA for the boat. The customs officers on the ground may not necessarily understand the effect of dual citizenship on whether the goods are being imported or not - so go for the standard that most UK yachtsmen will use - UK registered, UK passport and TA.

Even as Tranona said, it will make no difference if you get an efficient and up-to-date customs officer on the French side - the problems come when the customs officer involved isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[Neil]

In most EU countries you are required to fly an ensign (except at night when at anchor or when in a marina).
If you fly an ensign belonging to a country in which the boat is not registered, that would be fraud.

But there is no registration in Ireland........

 

[Glisferox]

Also thinking about a trip to France. My boat is on the UK SSR. The UK passport office made such an arse of my recent attempt at passport renewal that I decided not to bother and just got an Irish one instead. I'm resident in Scotland. Are there likely to be any problems with an Irish passport holder sailing a uk registered boat. Shall I fly a tricolour, saltire or red ensign or all three. Last time I went it was a saltire the only comment I got was from a warship passing in Plymouth when I distinctly heard over their tannoy what the #£!!#k is that ensign.

There should be no problems, as Tranona points out the residency of the owner is what matters, so a UK resident EU citizen's boat falls under the same TA rules as a UK resident Brit (that, at least, is my understanding). To that end you should carry some proof of UK residency in case you meet some overly officious officer.

Don't as someone suggested chuck an Irish ensign on and pretend to be an Irish 'registered' boat, I suspect that the authorities will take a dim view of the breach of maritime law should you get caught and may well be quite heavy handed, given the immigration/Terrorist/Russian problems of late - you will look suspicious. On the VAT side, 'registering' a boat in Ireland and bringing it into the EU would, I'm fairly sure, generate a chargeable event. At such a point VAT payment would probably be cheaper, for most of us, than to admit our deception and pay the lawyers bills.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The point I was making was that if you have an Irish passport, why not just sail where you want and for as long as you want in Europe on your Irish passport; who would care if your boat was on the UK SSR? Given that Ireland has no SSR, who's to know? Fly the Irish flag from your boat - you're Irish, after all.

As an EU citizen, once you are in another EU country for more than 3 months, you are required to register with the local authorities and if you stay in an EU country for more than 6 months, then you become EU resident.

The boat must be registered as this must be presented on entry. But if you remain in the EU long enough to be deemed resident, the UK boat you brought in on TA now becomes an import and is no longer allowed under TA.

The reality is that you can probably travel round the EU on an Irish passport indefinitely as long as you don't stay in any one country for more than 3 months - the sh*t only hits the fan when you get known to the authorities for something unrelated, like healthcare, an accident or any legal issues.

Basically the OP has to decide his own level of risk. If you intend to stay less than 3 months then the best option IMO is UK citizen, UK passport, UK registered boat and TA.

 

[Neil]

If the boat was in the U.K. on B-Day then the boat is now UK goods and has lost it's EU goods status. This only creates issues if the OP is resident in an EU country.

When the boat enters the EU, if the owner presents an EU passport then the authorities might think it needs to go through an import procedure which is unrelated to VAT and it would also raise questions about residency as Temporary Admission into the EU is not available to EU residents.

Only non residents (like UK citizens resident in the UK) will sail through a TA application with few questions being asked - which is why I stipulated the assumption. He is effectively a UK resident bringing the boat into the EU from outside the EU - a classic Temporary Admission case where the French won't care about the VAT or otherwise status of the vessel.

I would advise against using an EU passport on entry as you may be delayed proving that you are UK and not EU resident - especially since most EU citizens resident in the U.K. now have "settled status" which the OP won't have - and which will force presentation of the UK passport anyway.

I have been travelling backwards and forwards on my UK/German passports for a few years now and the rules are simple if you want to avoid scrutiny, use German to exit the EU EU side, and UK to enter the UK UK side, and the opposite going in the other direction.

I used my UK passport to exit once and got questioned over entry and exit stamps (Munich airport) so I had to show my German passport to prove that the lack of stamps didn't matter. They lost interest once I showed both passports.

Entering with goods that have value, like a boat - due to the questions surrounding UK or EU goods, my advice would be to remain a simple UK citizen with a UK passport, and asking for TA for the boat. The customs officers on the ground may not necessarily understand the effect of dual citizenship on whether the goods are being imported or not - so go for the standard that most UK yachtsmen will use - UK registered, UK passport and TA.

Even as Tranona said, it will make no difference if you get an efficient and up-to-date customs officer on the French side - the problems come when the customs officer involved isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

Well, I still don't see it. If I sailed my boat to France on my Irish passport, would I have to prove that my boat didn't come from the UK? If I sailed from France to Spain, would I have to admit to UK residence? As an EU citizen, am I not free to sail anywhere in Europe without hindrance? When I travel to Europe I don't have to prove Irish residence?

 

[Neil]

Basically the OP has to decide his own level of risk. If you intend to stay less than 3 months then the best option IMO is UK citizen, UK passport, UK registered boat and TA.

Do you mean more than 3 months?

 

[westernman]

But there is no registration in Ireland........

It seems there is:-

Irish Boat Registration Services - Irish Boat Registration Services

In most countries in the EU the boat has to be registered somewhere.
May be in Ireland and in the UK it does not matter, but it will in France, Spain, etc, etc

 

[Neil]

It seems there is:-

Irish Boat Registration Services - Irish Boat Registration Services

In most countries in the EU the boat has to be registered somewhere.
May be in Ireland and in the UK it does not matter, but it will in France, Spain, etc, etc

Never heard of that one. I was looking at this: Small Craft Register and YOU. I've emailed Irish Sailing to see if anything has changed since and the legality of the above commercial service. I've an interest because I have aspirations of towing my new boat to France and sailing there for a week or two.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Well, I still don't see it. If I sailed my boat to France on my Irish passport, would I have to prove that my boat didn't come from the UK? If I sailed from France to Spain, would I have to admit to UK residence? As an EU citizen, am I not free to sail anywhere in Europe without hindrance? When I travel to Europe I don't have to prove Irish residence?

The risk is bringing UK goods (a UK boat) into the EU and not declaring it - regardless of residency or citizenship. If the Irish passport contains the same information as a German one, then residency is indicated in the passport and TA is available - but I don't know if residency in the UK is mentioned in an Irish passport.

That's it at the end of the day.

A combination of UK passport, UK boat, and TA will sail through the procedures at port of entry as it is the standard for most UK boats going to France and will elicit the least delay and the least scrutiny IMO. This would be fine for a stay of less than 3 months.

For more than 3 months, then you need to assert EU citizenship - but if you stay in an EU country for more than 3 months you are required to register (which puts you in their TAX and social security system) and once you are registered, then at some point later that becomes residency. Once you are EU resident, then the TA is no longer valid and the boat has been imported.

Don't register and the risk of getting noticed via healthcare emergencies, car accidents, or any other incident is there - real world consequences and level of risk are difficult to quantify - and as mentioned earlier, if you never stay in one EU country for more than 3 months, and remain resident in the UK then all will probably be fine. Healthcare will probably be the biggest issue.

 

[Tranona]

Some confusion again here.

The requirement to have a boat registered and fly the ensign of the flag state is nothing to do with the EU, nor has it any bearing on whether the boat has free circulation within the EU. There are many UK registered boats (owned by both UK citizens/residents, or non UK citizens) that have free circulation within the EU because they are EU VAT paid. However they cannot visit UK if owned by a UK resident without paying UK VAT.

Where registration becomes important for visiting the EU is if the boat is owned by a third country resident and is not EU VAT paid. Then it has to be registered outside the EU and can enter under TA for nominally 18 months without paying VAT. This is the rule that allows UK boaters to sail backwards and forwards to the EU . Most EU states, particularly those facing the UK do not seem to formally record the entry of the boat for visits but do check its arrival. If the intention is to keep the boat in the EU for an extended period then it makes sense to tell customs so that you have a start date for your 18 months to avoid being found out overstaying and paying the penalty.

From what I have seen and read since B day there has been no change in formalities for visiting boats - just for people. If course there may still be changes in the future, but monitoring TA is up to the individual state so there is not an EU wide scheme like there is for people in Schengen.

The same basic rule applies to EU boats visiting the EU and as we have seen customs has increased the amount of control over entry for both visitors and returning residents.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

But there is no registration in Ireland........

There is no Small Ships Register equivalent in Ireland, but there is a ships register. The problem for owners of small craft who wish it to be registered in Ireland is that registration is an expensive kerfuffle. The link given by weternman is to an agent who will arrange it for you for a fee. This is the official Irish guvmint website...

Mercantile Marine Office (MMO)

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Some confusion again here.

The requirement to have a boat registered and fly the ensign of the flag state is nothing to do with the EU, nor has it any bearing on whether the boat has free circulation within the EU. There are many UK registered boats (owned by both UK citizens/residents, or non UK citizens) that have free circulation within the EU because they are EU VAT paid. However they cannot visit UK if owned by a UK resident without paying UK VAT.

Where registration becomes important for visiting the EU is if the boat is owned by a third country resident and is not EU VAT paid. Then it has to be registered outside the EU and can enter under TA for nominally 18 months without paying VAT. This is the rule that allows UK boaters to sail backwards and forwards to the EU . Most EU states, particularly those facing the UK do not seem to formally record the entry of the boat for visits but do check its arrival. If the intention is to keep the boat in the EU for an extended period then it makes sense to tell customs so that you have a start date for your 18 months to avoid being found out overstaying and paying the penalty.

From what I have seen and read since B day there has been no change in formalities for visiting boats - just for people. If course there may still be changes in the future, but monitoring TA is up to the individual state so there is not an EU wide scheme like there is for people in Schengen.

The same basic rule applies to EU boats visiting the EU and as we have seen customs has increased the amount of control over entry for both visitors and returning residents.

I would add that UK registered can be conflated with UK goods (no VAT in EU paid) ... that is what happened to me with both the Croatian and Slovenian Port authorities refusing to back down and unwilling to accept my Croatian VAT Paid paperwork. They insisted that the new EU owner needed to pay VAT after the purchase. It was resolved when I used the Croatian paperwork to obtain a T2L.

 

[westernman]

I would add flying the ensign of the country of the boat registration is required in many places. Including France. It is not required in the UK for UK boats.
May be foreign boats are required to fly an ensign in the UK- I don't know.

But in France, and many other places, if you do not fly an ensign you run a risk of getting pulled over and fined. They will then check your documentation.
If you fly an ensign which you are not entitled to fly that is fraud and can have more serious consequences.

 

[Tranona]

I would add that UK registered can be conflated with UK goods (no VAT in EU paid) ... that is what happened to me with both the Croatian and Slovenian Port authorities refusing to back down and unwilling to accept my Croatian VAT Paid paperwork. They insisted that the new EU owner needed to pay VAT after the purchase. It was resolved when I used the Croatian paperwork to obtain a T2L.

Yes, that conflation is common driven by ignorance amongst officials. Similarly the T2L is used in a way that it was never intended. For many years Greece tried to treat Channel Island registered boats as third country and subject to TA rather than free circulation. Old habits die hard - even when killed by EU commission rulings.

 

[st599]

I've an interest because I have aspirations of towing my new boat to France and sailing there for a week or two.

Isn't TA for a vessel arriving by sea? Towing it you get in to the fun of does the trailer meet EU regs (the UK had some dispensation that's now gone) and do you need to Carnet the boat?

 

[Neil]

Isn't TA for a vessel arriving by sea? Towing it you get in to the fun of does the trailer meet EU regs (the UK had some dispensation that's now gone) and do you need to Carnet the boat?

I've no idea. It's UK built trailer that meets EU regs, as far as I know. How do people manage with caravans as such?

 

[st599]

I've no idea. It's UK built trailer that meets EU regs, as far as I know. How do people manage with caravans as such?

A caravan is a different tax classification to a boat so something else will happen to them.

Looking at dinghy class association websites and Cork week. They're suggesting Carnets may be required.

The major thing with trailers seems to be the lighting board must affix to the trailer beyond the extremity of the load.