Sailing Knives and the law?

As I'm regularly told by a friend who runs a small club in Cornwall, carrying any sort of blade or weapon onto a licensed premises (e.g. a pub) is against the law. So if a copper does search you in a bar (possible if say the bar its self was being raided and searched) then you don't have any excuse for that knife that's in your possession. So, best leave it on the boat if getting stopped and searched worries you.
 
I don't think so. The following comes from the amendment to the sentencing guidelines advice to courts:

5. The guideline provides three categories of seriousness:

• level 1 is for the situation where a person has a weapon or bladed article, is not in a “dangerous circumstance” and the weapon or bladed article is not used to threaten or to
cause fear; in those circumstances:
- applying Povey, where the offensive weapon is a knife the starting point would be close
to 12 weeks custody for a first time adult offender who has pleaded not guilty;
- in relation to an offensive weapon other than a knife, the starting point for a first time
adult offender who has pleaded not guilty is a high level community order.

• level 2 is for the situation where a weapon is in the possession of the offender in “dangerous circumstances” but is not used to threaten or to cause fear; in those circumstances:

- applying Povey, where the offensive weapon is a knife the starting point for a first time adult offender who has pleaded not guilty is committal to the Crown Court and, therefore,
a custodial sentence in excess of 6 months;

- in relation to an offensive weapon other than a knife, the starting point for a first time
adult offender who has pleaded not guilty is a custodial sentence of 6 weeks.

• level 3 is for the situation where a weapon is used in dangerous circumstances to threaten or cause fear; in those circumstances, both the starting point and range for a first
time adult offender who has pleaded not guilty are for sentencing in the Crown Court and, therefore, in excess of 6 months custody.

“Dangerous circumstances” has not been judicially defined but was used in the previous Court of Appeal guideline judgment in Celaire and Poulton. In relation to a knife, a circumstance is likely to be dangerous if there is a real possibility that it could be used.


Note that it says "possession" no mention of intent.

Personally I think its madness. A complete abuse of the legal process to try to gain a few votes in a by election.
 
The only time I have been stopped and searched was about 30 years ago ,when they realised I wasnt the guy they were looking for the police gave me a lift as Id missed my bus /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So its not really a specific issue just a bit worrying that most of us could be arrested and convicted if the blade happened to be 3 and a quarter inches long or if it locks apparently.
 
One question that does spring to mind is what is meant by "possession".

Clearly if a knife is in your pocket its possession.

I thought that if it was in your car it was also possession.

If that is the case then how is a boat different to a car?

Is there an assumption that there is a good reason to have a knife on a boat but not in a car?
 
I can't think why...
I often have to cut myself free when I get my foot caught in a bight of rode as I throw the anchor out the back of the car.

Perfectly reasonable to have a 9 inch serrated divers knife under the drivers seat.
 
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What a tedious thread.

Is there any case ever of a yachtsman being charged with posesson of a knife?

No, thought not. Perhaps the police aren't as stupid as you all seem to think they are.

- W
 
That's alarming!

I have carried in my sailing bag - and usually also within another, smaller bosunry bag with needles, sail-repair thread, spinnaker tape, etc. - one or sometimes two folding knives, and I have done for as long as I've been sailing. They are carried, as all here will know, solely for safety and maintenance use on board a sailing boat.

knives.jpg


Measuring them now, each has a blade of 9cm, and each locks its blade into place - avoiding potential injury to the user. It appears that my carrying those to and from boats in recent years - by car, by train, by aircraft - has had me commit, as I understand it, an ABSOLUTE criminal offence on each occasion. There was no mens rea - intention/knowledge/recklessness/negligence - attaching to any of those acts, yet my carrying such - within two closed bags - puts me beyond trial of my peers and at risk of imprisonment.

That is oppressive.

And I use the term in its legalistic context.....

/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
"What a tedious thread."

Well don't read it, then.....

"Is there any case ever of a yachtsman being charged with posesson of a knife?"

Yes, I know of at least two from personal experience, where the defendant raised boating as the reason he had a knife, one convicted one acquitted.

"No, thought not. Perhaps the police aren't as stupid as you all seem to think they are."

If talking to yourself is the first sign of insanity, does the same apply to posting a question and then answering it yourself in the same posting?
 
Point of correction. Yes, in your example there was mens rea. You intended to have the knives in your possession. If, for example, you set off for the boat after your wife had helpfully put the bosun's bag in your duffel bag without your knowledge, then there would be no mens rea on your part. You would have had no intention of having the knives in your possession.

Having said all that, this particular law is wildly open to abuse. There was a story in one of the IPC mags a month or so ago about a journo who was detained for several hours after being found with a normal sailing knife or Leatherman while on a train.
 
The simple fact is that the law is wildly open to abuse and history shows that in that situation it will be abused. Gradually bit by bit our liberty is being removed as we fins ourselves having to prove innocence rather than the state having to prove guilt.
 
Most drivers commit an offence every day; that of failing to carry their driving licence with them whilst driving. If you cannot produce it when requested by a police officer, you commit an offence. However, you have a defence if you can prove that you produced it to a police officer within seven working days.

Many offences have defences that it is down to the accused to prove, which, IMHO is as it should be. Why all the fuss about this one? Is anyone really suggesting that anyone carrying a knife should be able to say 'it's for my boat' and get away with it no matter what the location or circumstances and with no further investigation?

Your right to posses a knife as a tool is paired to your responsibility to prove that is why you have it in any given circumstance. Isn't that fair?
 
Perhaps not quite as bad as that. In the context of being part of other sailing gear a reasonable person would consider it a reasonable excuse.

I would agree not all policemen are reasonable people, but he would have to convince the CPS that it was not reasonable excuse, and they in turn would have to convince the magistrates. So there is some level of protection, although being dragged through the legal process and being saddled with the expense is not pleasant, even if you ultimately get off.

I think the real risk is if you get involved in some sort of altercation in which the police are called. They are likely to search all the participants and its at that point that you could have a problem. Particularly if, like Csail, you carry a serrated divers knife.

It would be difficult to convince anyone that you had reasonable cause to carry a thing like that into a pub or even in the street. Even getting yourself out of trouble with it would almost certainly result in a holiday at HM's expense.
 
I would agree in part.

With such things as driving without insurance and without license the accused has to prove his innocence.

I have no problem with this, however, I would suggest that this law is different.

Firstly the level of sentence - It is likely that you would receive a prison sentence in excess of 6 months for having a locking knife in your pocket if you became involved in "dangerous circumstances" And don't forget the worry and expense of having to mount a defence in the crown court. Remember too that this is for a first offence.

Your liberty is not at stake for driving without a license.

Secondly there is no question of intent to do harm. Simply carrying the thing in your pocket is sufficient to cause you to lose your liberty even though you pose no threat to anyone.

Thirdly, where does a reasonable excuse expire. If I carry a knife down Cowes seafront I may be considered to be within the law, but what if I get in the ferry to Southampton - am I still within the law? And if I drive home to Birmingham? Is the good reason the same for mobos as for raggies? - and how do you convince a policeman or a court of any of this.

Most of all my objection is to the reason for all this and the way it is being implemented. The only reason we are in this position is because the government needed to show that they were "doing something" about knife crime in a vain attempt to win a by election. In fact, of course, they have done nothing except cobble together these guidlines to present as a solution without any thought to the possible unintended consequences.
 
Even for a speeding camera offence the onus is on the owner to prove themselves inncoent not for the CPS to prove them guilty. That principle has been extended into many areas.

Sometimes the police can be stupid and apply the law with a bit too much zeal .... taking a drink of water at a traffic lights when waiting for the green was one example. Only with a knife the result may well be the case would continue on and you would be in jail.

The government does not have a clue how to govern and I agree - it cobbles bits together to look good but knife crime has risen under the same government.

We have no bill of rights to protect us and one of the reasons I have a boat is to escape as much of the madness as I can.
 
iN Spain and France all kinds of knives and other weapons are openly on display for sale.Do they have a greater knife crime problem than us?

I suspect not.
 
With speeding the photo from the camera is evidence of guilt so defence must show that there is doubt over its accuracy. I think thats fair enough.

I agree about the police, sometimes they do go OTT when exercise of discretion would have been wiser.

The situation that has been created with knives is now so ridiculous that simple possession is likely to produce a similar sentence to actually sticking it into someone. Which can't be right.

Not sure to what extent you would consider the European Charter of Human Rights as equivalent to a Bill of Rights - I would guess not very much.

If I remember my history lessons though we do have a Bill of Rights although it is a few hundred years old - 1689 I believe - so perhaps it needs an update.

It was mainly to protect the rights of people from the power of the Monarch by empowering Parliament. It would seem we now need protecting from Parliament

Hope you enjoy the new boat - without the previous traumas.
 
Question: If we have a knife on our boat, then the question must be asked as to how it got to the boat?

Clearly, at some time, we took it to the boat, and therefore had it in our "possession" with intent to have it in our possession.

There is no clarification on mens raus being either the intent to have it in our possession, or the intent to use it for a further criminal act.

Clearly, we are all criminals now.
 
Think again, my cousin is currently on police bail for possession of a knife in a public place. (Wishaw/Scotland) He is a keen fisherman and was wearing his fishing jacket while walking his dog in a rural/country area, he had walked about five miles from his home. He was stopped by the police, searched and found to be in possession of a knife, he spent the night in the cells. He has pled guilty to possession and is currently awaiting sentence. He is 45 yrs old, has clean criminal record over the past 30 yrs, he did not have the knife in open view and there was no complaint from a member of the public to cause the police to initiate the search. He is also the principle carer for his sister who is mentally handicapped, a six month sentence would be devastating for both of them.

He did not show the police any respect at the time of his arrest and this certainly did not help him, he did not threaten them in any way but he did protest at their actions in a loud and emotive manner.

A very good friend is a policeman and I know that he and most police would follow common sense when dealing with a situation like this, but in every job there are those who lack common sense and the law as it currently stands is wide open to abuse.

If a law is inappropriate then it should be changed to prevent potential abuse and erosion of civil liberties, it should not be left as is on the basis that the legal system will protect us. As others have already pointed out defending yourself outside the legal aid scheme is both expensive and nerve wracking.
 
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