Sailing downwind when over canvassed

[viva]

I have a gunter rigged boat and was recently caught out by a sudden squall. I was sailing downwind with no reefs it having previously been a force 3/4. The squall hit me without warning and must have been close to gale force. I had the boom well out and was surfing at an amazing speed and had reached a point where I wanted to make a turn but I felt unhappy at turning lest we broach. This caused me to think about what to do in such circumstances when you want to loose speed going down wind. I was single handed and daren't leave the tiller. I let the jib fly but that was doing much anyway. My gut was telling me to turn upwind and with the main flying free all would be OK. But I had seen another boat in similar circumstances make the turn and broach, so I just kept on downwind until the squall died. What would you do if you had to make the turn eg to avoid something?

 

[Porthandbuoy]

At all costs you want to avoid a gybe in these circumstances. The effect of rounding up into the wind should quieten everything down while you get things under control, but so much depends on the underwater profile of your boat, how fast you were sailing, eg surfing!! and the sea state.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that you should only ever show as much canvas as you would going to windward.

 

[westernman]

At all costs you want to avoid a gybe in these circumstances. The effect of rounding up into the wind should quieten everything down while you get things under control, but so much depends on the underwater profile of your boat, how fast you were sailing, eg surfing!! and the sea state.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that you should only ever show as much canvas as you would going to windward.

Downwind you need to bear away in the gusts!

If you are really on the limit, you cannot round up without going over - just keep going and hang on for the ride!!

If you do want to round up, start with the boat leaning over as far to windward as you dare, with the centre board right up - otherwise you will trip over it. With it up and the boat already healed you have the best chance of dissipating the kinetic energy by going side ways without falling over.

Best to head up the first bit pretty quickly - otherwise you will accelerate and the main will pull even harder. Then be prepared to pull hard up on the tiller to counteract the almost inevitable broach. Stay on the windward gunwhale the whole time. If you are just off the limit - this will work. If you are really on the limit, just keep heading downhill until the wind dies a bit!

 

[westernman]

At all costs you want to avoid a gybe in these circumstances. The effect of rounding up into the wind should quieten everything down while you get things under control, but so much depends on the underwater profile of your boat, how fast you were sailing, eg surfing!! and the sea state.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that you should only ever show as much canvas as you would going to windward.

Downwind you need to bear away in the gusts!

If you are really on the limit, you cannot round up without going over - just keep going and hang on for the ride!!

If you do want to round up, start with the boat leaning over as far to windward as you dare, with the centre board right up - otherwise you will trip over it. With it up and the boat already healed you have the best chance of dissipating the kinetic energy by going side ways without falling over.

Best to head up the first bit pretty quickly - otherwise you will accelerate and the main will pull even harder. Then be prepared to pull hard up on the tiller to counteract the almost inevitable broach. Stay on the windward gunwhale the whole time. If you are just off the limit - this will work and you will end up with the sail flogging and the boat almost stationary at about 90 degrees to the wind.

If you are really on the limit, just keep heading downhill until the wind dies a bit!

 

[snowleopard]

There are various ways of taking the drive out of a sail, collectively known as 'scandalizing'. They include:

-hauling the tack up the mast
-lifting the boom with the topping lift
-lowering the gaff by easing the peak halyard

It's worth experimenting to see what works with your rig.

In lighter conditions hauling the boom amidships will take the drive out of the sail but at speed the risk of veering off course and suddenly filling the sail with wind is probably too great.

 

[Poignard]

I would get the jib off/furled before attempting to turn because even if it was blanketed by the main before you make the turn, it will immediately fill when you come broadside on to the wind. Even if you just let the jib sheet go the flogging jib will still have a fair bit of windage as well as the racket making the manouvre seem more alarming than it is. There is also a risk of loose sheet getting foul of something.

 

[Seajet]

Scandalising the mainsail by hauling on the topping lift risks a Chinese Gybe, where the top part of the main flips over before the lower, ripping the sail; had that on a gunter rigged boat and wouldn't recommend it for fun !

the kicker should be as tight as poss' and the boom controlled, kept low.

Rounding up may be possible in some boats, but as stated best to hang on for the downwind ride; this only works on boats with sufficient rudder authority but most dinghies are fine in this respect ( one of the few I found wasn't was the Express ).

Another way of scandalising ( depowering ) the main when going downwind is to sheet it in central.

This takes guts and knowing your boat as it makes a gybe more likely, but the gybe will be much less powerfull, and the boom controlled not 'skying' risking the aforementioned Chinese Gybe.

The secret is not to cleat the mainsheet, and let the boom run out instantly ( but not as far as the shrouds ) if you do gybe.

On an average sailing dinghy I find holding the mainsheet under a thumb on the tiller works well, if there's too much force for a thumb on the end of a purchase, something needs to be done !

Remember the main will have a leverage affect when boomed out, the Centre of Effort of the rig is almost all off to one side, while the boat is still pivotting around her centre / daggerboard.

In all but the strongest gusts one can usually sheet in the main, depower and lower it then carry on being pulled by the jib.

This is however going to leave the boat much slower and a sitting duck for waves, so if at all possible the 'hang on for the ride' scheme works best for dinghies close to shore; try to get to learn your boat's handling in less extreme conditions.

 

[Lakesailor]

The OP hasn't said it is a dinghy. We need to know more.

 

[Seajet]

The OP hasn't said it is a dinghy. We need to know more.

LakeSailor,

Good Point as always, though if something larger than a dinghy I'd have thought rounding up OK due to the - guessed likely - design, though must admit I wouldn't try it in a gaff Falmouth Working Boat....Before my one & only sail on one ( a real high spot in one's lifetime ), the owner saw me looking at the rig, and burst out laughing !

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Slow and Staged Luffing Up Will De-power Without Risk of Broach

As a kid I sailed a Mirror dinghy (gunter rigged) on a manmade loch quite a lot throughout the winter. When running out of space going downwind in strong winds (or big gusts) the only option was to round up if one didn't want to gybe. You will not broach or capsize providing the centre / dagger board is at least 3/4 up, the main and jib is right off and you luff up very slowly. I developed a method where I would luff up a few degrees, sail a straight line, luff up some more degrees, sail a straight line, repeat until the main was flapping.

The slow and staged luff up approach is very controlled. It works on keel boats too. The key point is slow turn and do not sheet in (obviously) and make sure the jib sheet is right out or loose. Quite often a jib sheet will be pulled in to stop it flapping when on a near run and this can be fatal in a dinghy.

One point to consider is that a sharp roll due to waves or turning too fast could cause the boom to strike the water; if the yacht continues to heal the boom is effectively sheeted in by water pressure pushing on the boom. This of course makes the situation worse. If this happens releasing the kicker is the only option.

If its a gunter rigged catamaran (some Wharram Cats for example) then the only option is to run down wind as even a slow luff to windward can cause the lee hull to dig and induce a broach.

Hope this helps. It has been learned the hard way!

 

[viva]

Thanks for the feedback - she is not a dinghy

Thanks everyone for the feedback. She is not a dinghy but a Norfolk Gypsy. A heavy boat for her size about 1.4 tons. I had thoght about scandalising the main but as I said that would require another pair of hands or leaving the tiller which was not possible.

 

[Poignard]

WNS?

What do those who advocate carrying on running before the wind instead of rounding-to suggest when:

a] the wind continues to increase to a dangerous strength?

or

b] approaching a lee-shore?

or

c] heading towards a narrow channel?

or

d] intended destination is abeam?

 

[snowleopard]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. She is not a dinghy but a Norfolk Gypsy. A heavy boat for her size about 1.4 tons. I had thoght about scandalising the main but as I said that would require another pair of hands or leaving the tiller which was not possible.

Just had a look at pictures of the boat. The small photo on the manufacturer's website make it look more like a conventional gaff rig rather than a gunter where the gaff is normally parallel to the mast. Does it have throat & peak halyards or just a single one?

I appreciate that when caught out and unable to leave the helm to reduce sail you are pretty stuck for options but there are a few things you could do to prepare for it happening again.

With the luff lacing it should be easy to rig up/downhauls to scandalize by lifting the tack.

Gaffers allow you to raise and lower the main with the wind aft so with halyard(s) led aft you could actually dump the main if overpressed.

 

[flaming]

What do those who advocate carrying on running before the wind instead of rounding-to suggest when:

a] the wind continues to increase to a dangerous strength?

or

b] approaching a lee-shore?

or

c] heading towards a narrow channel?

or

d] intended destination is abeam?

Given that racing in high winds is essentially composed of beating with a little bit too much sail up, and then running with a lot too much sail up, perhaps there's something to learn from racing techniques?

The biggest mistake you see people running before the wind making is to steer too low. Once you get very deep, the flow across the sails is no longer in just one direction, from luff to leech, but starts oscilating - being alternatively luff to leech and leech to luff. The result of this is that the boat rocks and rolls, and increases the chances of a crash gybe - which is a much worse outcome than a broach - which whilst scary, is unlikely to do more than a quick wash of the leeward windows.
The effects are most noticeable with a spinnaker up, but can be an issue with white sails too. So if you're getting all rolly, slowly bring the boat up until the heel is more constant and then either accept that you now have a no go area dead downwind, or reef.

When you've had enough of running downwind (or reach a mark....) and want to turn upwind, either to sail that way - or just to be able to tuck a reef in, the best way to do this is basically to leave the main all the way out and start heading up slowly, then once the main starts feathering you can head up as fast as you like, and pull the sail in at your own pace once you're ready.

Before heading into a narrow space, I would probably do the above and reef, or simply drop the main and carry on with the jib.

And if wanting to reach, you'll need to reef, so just come up to a close reach, reef as normal and then carry on.

 

[Seajet]

Given that racing in high winds is essentially composed of beating with a little bit too much sail up, and then running with a lot too much sail up, perhaps there's something to learn from racing techniques?

The biggest mistake you see people running before the wind making is to steer too low. Once you get very deep, the flow across the sails is no longer in just one direction, from luff to leech, but starts oscilating - being alternatively luff to leech and leech to luff. The result of this is that the boat rocks and rolls, and increases the chances of a crash gybe - which is a much worse outcome than a broach - which whilst scary, is unlikely to do more than a quick wash of the leeward windows.
The effects are most noticeable with a spinnaker up, but can be an issue with white sails too. So if you're getting all rolly, slowly bring the boat up until the heel is more constant and then either accept that you now have a no go area dead downwind, or reef.

When you've had enough of running downwind (or reach a mark....) and want to turn upwind, either to sail that way - or just to be able to tuck a reef in, the best way to do this is basically to leave the main all the way out and start heading up slowly, then once the main starts feathering you can head up as fast as you like, and pull the sail in at your own pace once you're ready.

Before heading into a narrow space, I would probably do the above and reef, or simply drop the main and carry on with the jib.

And if wanting to reach, you'll need to reef, so just come up to a close reach, reef as normal and then carry on.

I think the overall message coming across is the golden rule for sensible boats not racing, ' Don't carry any more sail running than the boat will tolerate going upwind '.

Judging that amount only comes with experience & a feeling for a boat, but you have a good design there; I found by accident more than design in early days when I didn't have efficient main reefing, being overpowered was actually an advantage, with the speed to get out of trouble rather than sit and get clobbered as mentioned.

You may find your rudder is more easily stalled due to keel configuration, but gentle helm movements - steer with fingertips not handfulls ! - Should get you safely home.

Experience with racing dinghies would be a very good idea if available locally to you - club notice boards are always keen on 'crew available' postcards, one doesn't usually have to be a member just contact the secretary.

A good dinghy skipper should give a capsize drill which shows it's nothing to worry about; the great thing about dinghies is that they handle like jet fighters, but the worst that can happen is you get wet, while learning a lot about sailing.

 

[mixmaster]

"Don't carry any more sail running than the boat will tolerate going upwind"

I don't agree with this rule. Even when long distance cruising. Running with the trades there's usually no problem having all sails up in with wind in the upper teens and with the wind 15 knots or less some sort of downind sail is almost a must. I would not have the #1 genoa out if heading in the opposite direction.

You don't have to be a racer to realise you can carry, and probably should carry, more sail area downwind.

 

[fireball]

You don't have to be a racer to realise you can carry, and probably should carry, more sail area downwind.

But you do need to know a few ways of getting rid of that sail area when the wind pips up - without it being too dangerous ...

 

[prv]

Gaffers allow you to raise and lower the main with the wind aft so with halyard(s) led aft you could actually dump the main if overpressed.

I can raise/lower/reef with the wind aft, but if it's at all windy then the sail won't come down under its own weight. Being pressed against the shrouds tends to hold it up, so I need to go and help it down at least to begin with. Doesn't take much assistance, but enough that I don't think you could treat "dumping the main" as an option for this sort of situation. The OP's rig is not all that dissimilar to mine.

Pete

 

[dunedin]

What do those who advocate carrying on running before the wind instead of rounding-to suggest when:

a] the wind continues to increase to a dangerous strength?

or

b] approaching a lee-shore?

or

c] heading towards a narrow channel?

or

d] intended destination is abeam?

For a narrow channel TRY pulling kicker on tight and sheeting in the boom onto the centreline and steering VERY carefully. This worked on a 36 foot gaffer on the broads as mobos passed the other way, but wont last long.

Or

Take the lesser of the pain, strap / hold on tight and gently try to round up - or lose it and do a bit faster - accept the inevitable semi broach, window wash and flogging sails, then slam some reefs in. Done this one also after 52 knots gust

References to techniques with Mirror dinghy of limited relevance to most boats. Mirror relatively very stable and under canvassed, unless crewed by small children (hence why a great family / learner boat)

 

[Topcat47]

I now have a parasail. For 80% of the time I'm using it, I have no main up. If the wind increases, it is relatively easy to douse the sail and run out the jib or up the storm jib if it's going to get that bad. Downwind in anything over a F6, I'd be flying a jib only. if I were approaching a lee shore and unable to leave the cockpit, then it's time to start the engine and furl the jib.

The parasail is good in that it can be used even on a beat (although it's not as effective as a genoa/main).

This is only my second season with it but , from experience, I'd rather be on the foredeck in the channel when it gets "busy" than in a "wind over tide" Solent chop.