Sail won't go up the headfoil

[shmoo]

Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

When we got the boat (Sigma 362) 4 or 5 years ago we got more sails than you can shake a stick at. We have only really used the main, big genoa and nr3 jib. There is a nice, almost unused I think, number one genoa but I can't get it more than about 3m up the headfoil. My guess is there is a join there and if I can get the top of the boltrope past the join it will go on up, at least to the next join.

What's the trick? I have used as much brute force as I dare...

 

[jwilson]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

It could be that this sail was never made for this foil. If it goes 3m up though, try a bit of lubricant in the groove and on the head of the boltrope/wire on the sail.

Maclube is very good but horribly expensive. Asda's or Tesco's cheapest spray furniture polish works too - you want a cheap polish with no expensive beeswax. Don't use too much.

 

[westhinder]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

Have you tried to turn the foil slightly as you hoist? This has done the trick for me. When it did not work, we hoisted someone aloft to guide the sail past the joins of the foil. Which make is your furler? Ours is an old Harken. The tiny pins that are supposed to lock the joining pieces of the foils keep disappearing as we sail.

 

[boatmike]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

I often have the same problem with my genoa which has a very tight boltrope. I think the clue here is it is new and unused. I find the spray on dry lubricant that you can buy in chandlers works OK but you have to keep tension on the bottom by hand as you winch it up. One wrinkle in the sailcloth and you are boogered! After a season or so's use it will slide like the others hopefully.

 

[William_H]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

Certainly if there a specific spot where it always stops there must be an obstruction. If however sometimes it goes a little further after becoming difficult it could be just the accumulation of friction from a tight luff rope. Certainly it should go up very easily especially if it is a foil designed for easy headsail changes as opposed to a foil for roller reefing. So get a step ladder and have close look. olewill

 

[Guest]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

[ QUOTE ]
When we got the boat (Sigma 362) 4 or 5 years ago we got more sails than you can shake a stick at. We have only really used the main, big genoa and nr3 jib. There is a nice, almost unused I think, number one genoa but I can't get it more than about 3m up the headfoil. My guess is there is a join there and if I can get the top of the boltrope past the join it will go on up, at least to the next join.

What's the trick? I have used as much brute force as I dare...

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine has similar problem at the second joint up ... too high to get to ... once mast was taken down - problem was identified as loose joint in the foil - a 609 Plastimo system. The rivets holding the foil sections together were rotted away and allowed the joint to seperate / work when hoisting ...

Now I've drilled out and re-riveted - I hope problem is solved ... (probably not as system is old and worn ... but at least I know foil will not be risk anymore)

You probably don't have same system ... but problem may be similar ... loose joints plus a un-used sail that has original size boltrope ! not worn and easy to slide.

 

[Gordonmc]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

Good point... I had a similar problem with a previous boat... the bolt rope kept jamming . A sailmaker took £60 to sew on a new boltrope and I never had any more problems. A couple of mm made all the difference.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

Gordon's beaten me to it.

If there's no obvious problem with the foil, get the bolt rope changed for one size smaller.

 

[shmoo]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

Thanks for all the good advice. Raises a suplementary question. See last para.

Its a Furlex unit and I can't *see* any discountinuity, even with bins so I don't think its failing at the joints.

I think the sail was made for the boat 'cause its got the sail number on it!

I will try the de-wrinkleing and lubing but if it comes to changing the bolt rope, what is the "granularity" of bolt rope sizes - it looks about 6mm, I think a whole mm less may be risky. I don't want it pulling out. Does it come in 0.5mm steps?

 

[Guest]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for all the good advice. Raises a suplementary question. See last para.

Its a Furlex unit and I can't *see* any discountinuity, even with bins so I don't think its failing at the joints.

I think the sail was made for the boat 'cause its got the sail number on it!

I will try the de-wrinkleing and lubing but if it comes to changing the bolt rope, what is the "granularity" of bolt rope sizes - it looks about 6mm, I think a whole mm less may be risky. I don't want it pulling out. Does it come in 0.5mm steps?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I had boltrope questiopn ... sailmaker gave me a selection of slides to try ... see which was best without sticking .... he then fitted boltrope to sail to match in mm.

You say you can't see joint working - not could I ... it only takes a miniscule to catch ....

 

[ditchcrawler]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

If you try lubricant the best is PTFE dry spray.It is sold as sailcote(mega bucks) in the chandlers,but cycle shops sell their own version for about 4 or 5 quid,which is what I use.Are you sure the No 1 is smaller than your big genoa.A No 1 is usually the biggest genoa on a racing boat unless you have an MPG(multi purpose genoa) cross between a genoa & a chute.

 

[shmoo]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

[ QUOTE ]
Are you sure the No 1 is smaller than your big genoa.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you have to ask hard questions. No, of course I am not sure!

I will have to go and unroll both the damn things now and measure them. Together they would cover a tennis court. Last time I dragged a sail in to Christchurch Park in Ipswich, behind my house, some goths came over and asked if it was an "Art attack", and were quite dissapointed when I said it wasn't.

 

[Guest]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

[ QUOTE ]
If you try lubricant the best is PTFE dry spray.It is sold as sailcote(mega bucks) in the chandlers,but cycle shops sell their own version for about 4 or 5 quid,which is what I use.Are you sure the No 1 is smaller than your big genoa.A No 1 is usually the biggest genoa on a racing boat unless you have an MPG(multi purpose genoa) cross between a genoa & a chute.

[/ QUOTE ]

#1 .... sorry have to differ ....#1 is a term used by many in cruising terms ..... but based on the wall diagram that graces my Home Office ...

Going from smallest to biggest ....

SJ - Strom Jib ...
WJ - Working Jib .. approx 2x area of SJ, often clew still ahead of mast
IG - Intermediate Genoa ... clew now past mast and this is often the #1
RG - Racing Genoa ... similar foot length to IG .. but set much lower at tack, giving it the sweep ... and often has higher head giving greater aspect ratio ...
CG - Tack is now back up similar to IG etc. giving chance to see ahead ... but overall foot length is now well aft and longer - giving the standard Genoa that many use ... and roll.
LWG Pen - Light Weather Penalty Genoa ... extreme foot length sweeping genoa that also has high head, but penalised in racing for exceeding area limits.

Back to cruising ... I think I am similar to many ... full genny is big and needs early reef or change down to #1 jib ... then through to #3 or Storm Jib ...

But maybe I've been wrong all these years and my racing ?

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[michael_w]

Re: A pedant writes....

Spitfire jib
Storm jib
#4 = 85% of J and 85% of firestay length.
#3 = aka Le Solent if 100% of J and 100% of FL
#2 = 135% to 140% of J
#1 = 150% OF J (many #1 from light through medium to heavy)

Plus lots of other rarities like drifter/reacher, windseeker, jibtop, daisy staysail, Code 0 etc. etc

J = distance between the mast and forestay at the sheerline.

 

[Guest]

Re: A pedant writes....

[ QUOTE ]
Spitfire jib
Storm jib
#4 = 85% of J and 85% of firestay length.
#3 = aka Le Solent if 100% of J and 100% of FL
#2 = 135% to 140% of J
#1 = 150% OF J (many #1 from light through medium to heavy)

Plus lots of other rarities like drifter/reacher, windseeker, jibtop, daisy staysail, Code 0 etc. etc

J = distance between the mast and forestay at the sheerline.

[/ QUOTE ]

I left out the J references ... because I have various books that give different figures for each ... and I think you will find that odd Sailmakers will have their versions of measurements as well .... and of course it depends on owners request as well. The reference point is usually the standard Genoa / Main designed and set by Boat Builder / Designer - all others reference to that with foot length then given factor of J.

 

[KREW2]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

Last year I had to get a new genny. I told the company that the max size for the luff was 5ml so they put a 5ml luff rope in. The thickness of the sail cloth was not taken into account and try as I might it would only go up the foil about 3/4 meters. Seateach realised their mistake collected the sail, and delivered it back promptly with a 4ml luff rope, and up she went.

 

[shmoo]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

4mm vs 5mm - that's good to know if I do have to have the bolt rope changed, thanks

 

[shmoo]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

I am afraid you are right ditch. I dug out the original original operator's manual for the 362 and it says
Furling Genoa Luff 13.65 Leech 13.25 Foot 6.32 Area 41.50
Nr 1 Luff 14.08, leech 13.25, Foot length not given Area 46.52

So the number 1 is about 10% bigger area than what I thought of as "the big genoa"

The number 2, also almost unused, is a tad smaller at 38.46m2 but it has a couple of little battens which means I can't furl it if I need to.

Bah!
Don't know what to do now...

 

[Guest]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

[ QUOTE ]
I am afraid you are right ditch. I dug out the original original operator's manual for the 362 and it says
Furling Genoa Luff 13.65 Leech 13.25 Foot 6.32 Area 41.50
Nr 1 Luff 14.08, leech 13.25, Foot length not given Area 46.52

So the number 1 is about 10% bigger area than what I thought of as "the big genoa"

The number 2, also almost unused, is a tad smaller at 38.46m2 but it has a couple of little battens which means I can't furl it if I need to.

Bah!
Don't know what to do now...

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine - but ytou are comparing apples and pears ... similar family but different systems.

Furling is not in the Numbering system as it's a beast of its own accord.
Number Jibs are hanked or hoisted via a stay-foil not a furler.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Sail won\'t go up the headfoil

>Number Jibs are hanked or hoisted via a stay-foil not a furler.<

Strictly speaking, true, but nowadays only on an out and out racer. Most yachts now have furlers combined with a headfoil. If you want to race the furler can be ignored (and in some cases removed).