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timbartlett
Guest
Norfolk might look a bit like the Netherlands, but it isn't. Dutch rules don't apply (even if you've got them right!) No-one has "right of way". The concept simply does not exist.
Sail vs power colreg situation
- Thread starter maxcampbell
- Start date
sigmasailor
Well-Known Member
Agreed; there shouldn't be such a thing as 'right of way'; Dingy should still have tacked sooner. Mobo was well on SB site of the channel keeping speed and heading with nowhere to go; what more could he have done. Dingy willingly looked for confrontation, found, lost it. (Dutch book 'Vaarbewijs' I+II page 164 figure 4.40).
There doesn't need to be a rule; it is a matter of common sense.
pteron
Well-Known Member
There's a lot of mixing of opinion with the rules though.
The rules make the sailing boat the stand on vessel and the motor boat is burdened to give way (it's under power AND overtaking). We are watching from a motor boat on the other side of the reasonably wide river so the burdened boat obviously has the whole of the river to manœuvre in and cannot claim any higher rights (CBD or RAM).
My opinion is that the sailboat, being vastly more manœuvrable, should have avoided the situation in the first place, but the only rule to support that is rule 2.
The rules make the sailing boat the stand on vessel and the motor boat is burdened to give way (it's under power AND overtaking). We are watching from a motor boat on the other side of the reasonably wide river so the burdened boat obviously has the whole of the river to manœuvre in and cannot claim any higher rights (CBD or RAM).
My opinion is that the sailboat, being vastly more manœuvrable, should have avoided the situation in the first place, but the only rule to support that is rule 2.
savageseadog
Well-Known Member
Quite agree. I was waiting for something significant, all I could see was a couple of reasonably competent dinghy sailors ducking a mobo.
fireball
Well-Known Member
I didn't see that - I saw a couple of reasonably incompetent dinghy sailors not tacking sooner - if he was racing he would've lost out big time through ducking ...
maxcampbell
Well-Known Member
I'm glad to have sparked some debate.
The reason I put it up was that it seemed to me to highlight the difference between regulations and good manners / common sense (hope my brother doesn't join this forum!).
In the end, of course, it was all under control and no person or thing harmed, so, yes, it is a lot of hot air, but I'm still happy to see the discussion.
The reason I put it up was that it seemed to me to highlight the difference between regulations and good manners / common sense (hope my brother doesn't join this forum!).
In the end, of course, it was all under control and no person or thing harmed, so, yes, it is a lot of hot air, but I'm still happy to see the discussion.
lotusman
Well-Known Member
Agree that dinghy is stand on vessel, and agree with other posters that common sense is lacking and courtesy is lacking. This debate is a bit of a calm in a tea cup.
Not sure that the motor boat is overtaking - it may be travelling faster, but it is not approaching the sailing dinghy from behind, it is crossing courses.
The best thing under collision rules is for the motor boat to reduce speed and avoid the sailing dinghy, but it wouldn't have hurt at all, as others have said, for the dinghy to put in an early tack and avoided closing on motorboat
Nice bit of film that has stimulated a number views
lw395
Well-Known Member
It's an interesting one, because a lot of variables come to mind.
1) It's not at sea, therefore colregs may be modified. A long time since I sailed on rivers that narrow, but IIRC there was some BWB rule about transiting mobo's having precedence.
2) The Mobo was overtaking. Or was it? It was never approaching the stern of the dinghy.
3) The dinghy tacked at the near bank, such that it put itself on a collision course at close range. Colregs do not encourage that! A heavy mobo might take a while to stop.
The sensible thing is for the Mobo to hold its course and speed and the dinghy to wave him past. If the Mobo slows down, they are simply in each other's way for longer.
A friendly call of 'keep going, I will tack' costs nothing. I say this a dinghy sailor.
However, the Mobo needs to be in a high state of 'Muppet Alert' as the dinghy might be sailed by beginners or idiots and the Mobo would find it hard to defend running over them.
1) It's not at sea, therefore colregs may be modified. A long time since I sailed on rivers that narrow, but IIRC there was some BWB rule about transiting mobo's having precedence.
2) The Mobo was overtaking. Or was it? It was never approaching the stern of the dinghy.
3) The dinghy tacked at the near bank, such that it put itself on a collision course at close range. Colregs do not encourage that! A heavy mobo might take a while to stop.
The sensible thing is for the Mobo to hold its course and speed and the dinghy to wave him past. If the Mobo slows down, they are simply in each other's way for longer.
A friendly call of 'keep going, I will tack' costs nothing. I say this a dinghy sailor.
However, the Mobo needs to be in a high state of 'Muppet Alert' as the dinghy might be sailed by beginners or idiots and the Mobo would find it hard to defend running over them.
pteron
Well-Known Member
Given that they are both making progress in the same direction, and that the power vessel starts behind the sailing vessel but ends up ahead of the sailing vessel, I'd say that it overtook.
pteron
Well-Known Member
I agree with your second paragraph.
On point 2 the mobo was often more than 22.5 degrees abaft the dinghy's beam. As the video starts, the dinghy is crossing towards the cameraman and the mobo crosses behind him so is technically overtaking. He is then obliged to keep clear until the overtaking manœuvre is complete.
lw395
Well-Known Member
The mobo is clearly overtaking in layman's terms, as you say.
But in the long scale, the Mobo is on passage, but the dinghy is probably ending up where it started.
In the short scale, the mobo is more like on the beam of the dinghy on its closing tack.
I depends when you take the approach to start.
lotusman
Well-Known Member
It depends on MSN 1781 rule 13(b): "A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming on another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam..."
CreakyDecks
Well-Known Member
I would expect that, in a dinghy with two people on board, at least one of them would have noticed a thirty foot cabin cruiser coming up the river. It is clear from the video that this wasn't a case of interpretation of rules it was just lack of observation by the dinghy sailors.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Please forgive naughty word near the end, but not my vid so can't bleep it.
This is my brother helming our dinghy, recklessly, in my view.
I don't think the mobo is constrained by draft, but I still blame the raggy for the near miss - does the panel agree?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE-HTjYBkAg
I think the dinghy sailor was bloody-minded and engineered the incident when, if he had simply luffed up for a few seconds, there would have been no problem.
He was sailing on a converging course with the mobo whose only option then was a very sharp turn to port - and what if the dinghy chose to tack again?
I'm with the mobo on this even if he is not without blame too.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Dont you all think that this thread has lost sight of the real issue.
The MOBO clearly has seen the sailing boat.
The sailing boat has clearly seen the mobo (and keeps looking)
The MOBO does his best to keep out the way (other than turn round and go back home !)
As modern sailing boats are so manoeuvrable the sailing boats captain feels perfectly comfortable to get as close as he did.
Clearly sailing boats are more manoeuvrable than they were several hundred years ago when col regs were introduced.
Its about time sail standing on was dropped and then straight forward port starboard rules apply.
Everyone would be safer.
Fast mobos would still zip round you same as they do now and Tankers wouldnt deliberately mow you down but everyone would know exactly where they stand.
Currently we have a situation where most think small sail boats should keep out the way of bigger boats but there are only a very small number who actual try to stand on, possibly in the misconception that they have to.
The MOBO clearly has seen the sailing boat.
The sailing boat has clearly seen the mobo (and keeps looking)
The MOBO does his best to keep out the way (other than turn round and go back home !)
As modern sailing boats are so manoeuvrable the sailing boats captain feels perfectly comfortable to get as close as he did.
Clearly sailing boats are more manoeuvrable than they were several hundred years ago when col regs were introduced.
Its about time sail standing on was dropped and then straight forward port starboard rules apply.
Everyone would be safer.
Fast mobos would still zip round you same as they do now and Tankers wouldnt deliberately mow you down but everyone would know exactly where they stand.
Currently we have a situation where most think small sail boats should keep out the way of bigger boats but there are only a very small number who actual try to stand on, possibly in the misconception that they have to.
lw395
Well-Known Member
I don't see any blame, it was a non-incident, apart from the bad language.
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timbartlett
Guest
The colregs are a lot more recent than "several hundred years ago". Yes, sailing boats have developed in that time, but so have motor boats -- and by a lot more. Modern sailing boats -- just like those of the 19th and 20th centuries are very manoeuvrable in some respects, but very unmanoeuvrable in others. Whilst there may be some merit in changing some of the colregs to suit the high densities of recreational craft found in some areas, I happen to believe that it is outweighed by having a world-wide standard code of behaviour.
When was Rule 17 deleted, then?
It is very simple and unambiguous. It exists. It is not a "misconception".
There is nothing in the colregs (or anywhere else) that says it does not apply to recreational craft, or to boats made of GRP, or to boats less than a certain length, or at weekends or any of the other excuses that get trotted out for breaking it.
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fireball
Well-Known Member
You're right - its about time we lost the "constrained by draught" - we all know that although Mobo skippers drink a skinful before casting off, they have a dolly bird onboard who can continue supplying their thirst for drink at whatever speed they are doing - and will continue until the ice runs out ...
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
Wotalotofwaffle
The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972 (COLREGS)
Says naff all about the Norfolk Broads, or rivers or canals. Like I said before, a load of hot air about a non event.
The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972 (COLREGS)
Says naff all about the Norfolk Broads, or rivers or canals. Like I said before, a load of hot air about a non event.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
You missed my concept in two respects Tim, if I may attempt to elaborate.
I am not suggesting a partial UK alteration, I am suggesting a World wide recognition of what is now universally practised across the globe (save a few twits in the river solent )
I didnt say Rule 17 had been deleted.
My statement was simply that the vast majority of sailors dont stand on to ships.
The vast majority of commercial captains do not expect small boats to stand on to them.
A few die hard sailors still stand on to the death through either stubbornness or a misplaced sense of duty.
It would make far more sense for that duty to be removed.
You can harp on as long as you like but in reality very few pleasure boats power or sail will aim for the bows of a Tanker/container ship.
The tanker skipper expects the pleasure boat to alter course but isnt certain.
Fireball, the constrained by draft needs to be there for the deep drafted boats.
get rid of sail should stand on to power and the bit you are concerned about vanishes anyway.
Knowing that all sailing boats now have engines leaves the other guy not knowing if the sailing boat should be treated as power anyway.
Motoring cones are totally inadequate, you had a near miss last week that would have been avoided if you didnt think you had to stand on to a mobo in a harbour entrance.