Sail vs power colreg situation

Ha! The same thing happened to me. I was in Southampton Water shortly out of the Hamble motoring on a parallel course to some race boat just a few boatlengths away. He decided to tack at exactly the moment which would bring us onto a collision course. I applied full throttle so that he could pass behind. My logic was that if I attempted a crash stop, and he didn't quite manage to get trimmed in time, he would crash into me with no place to go. By accelerating, I made it possible for him to avoid me in any case -- by either waiting a second, or by bearing off a little.

He had a second chance to avoid a close quarters situation by waiting just a few seconds to trim up. Did he do that? Did he? No, he trimmed up smartly, and just a boatlength away, making a collision almost inevitable. At the last second, he bore off and passed inches from my stern, shouting angrily.

What a testosterone-infused w@nker. This is a classical case of just enough knowledge to be dangerous -- power gives way to sail, right? Right, but is that all you know? Did you actually read the Colregds? The Colregs also forbid expressly maneuvering to create a close-quarters situation when this is avoidable. Tacking under the bows of another boat, whether or not you are the stand-on vessel, is bad seamanship, discourteous, against the Colregs, and just plain stupid. And typical Solent sailing style, I'm afraid to say.
 
It looks like he is tacking up somewhere must of us could jump across.
Why not just aim or the back of mobo instead of the middle??

I hope this doesn't become another mobo/sailor hate thread.

I was on a safety boat today helping look after 12 Optimists, in a tidal river. Obviously it was busy out today.

The courtesy shown by the mobo's was outstanding. Most stopped completely to give us some time to herd them away.

The only time I was worried was when yachts under motor approached.......
 
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Constrained by draught is not relevant

By the look of the video, the mobo was pretty near the edge of the river anyway.

The mobo should have anticipated that the dinghy was beating and would therefore be at risk of collision. The tack onto port seemed to be made in good time giving the mobo plenty of time to reduce speed and let the dinghy in front. Once the dinghy then tacked back onto starboard the mobo could have continued.

That said, once it became obvious that the mobo was going through anyway the dinghy should have tacked away rather than going behind
 
I'd go with Dockheads opinion and explanation, the dinghy sailor put the mobo into an impossible situation, in such a narrow waterway both the mobo and the dinghy would be aware it wasn't going to be a simple right of way situation and I think the mobo was entitled to believe the dinghy would have had the decency and common sense to have had a plan to short tack if the mobo still wasn't able to clear.

Cheers, Brian.
 
flobbergob said:
I'd go with Dockheads opinion and explanation, the dinghy sailor put the mobo into an impossible situation, in such a narrow waterway both the mobo and the dinghy would be aware it wasn't going to be a simple right of way situation and I think the mobo was entitled to believe the dinghy would have had the decency and common sense to have had a plan to short tack if the mobo still wasn't able to clear.

Cheers, Brian.
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Exactly - being the stand-on vessel does not give you the right to force other vessels into crash stops and other desperate maneuvers. You must not create a close quarters situation if you can avoid it.

If a vessel is constrained by draft to a channel, that anyway burdens the raggie.
 
maxcampbell said:
Please forgive naughty word near the end, but not my vid so can't bleep it.:rolleyes:

This is my brother helming our dinghy, recklessly, in my view.:o

I don't think the mobo is constrained by draft, but I still blame the raggy for the near miss - does the panel agree?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE-HTjYBkAg
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Taking things strictly by the Colregs, I'd primarily blame the motorboat, as she could either slow down or speed up to resolve the situation early on.

However, once a collision becomes imminent, it is required that both parties take any action necessary to avoid a collision. In this case the dinghy could have tacked again when some 10 meters off the path of the motorboat when it became clear she was not going to resolve the situation. And the motorboat could still have resolved the situation by increasing speed, even right at the last minute, once a collision was imminent.

So, with apologies to all concerned, both are richard-heads, one for not anticipating and avoiding or resolving the risk of collision early on, and later not taking action to avoid an imminent collision, the other for not taking appropriate action to avoid an imminent collision, despite her stand-on status when a collision risk existed.

IMHO

Plomong
 
jac said:
By the look of the video, the mobo was pretty near the edge of the river anyway.

The mobo should have anticipated that the dinghy was beating and would therefore be at risk of collision. The tack onto port seemed to be made in good time giving the mobo plenty of time to reduce speed and let the dinghy in front. Once the dinghy then tacked back onto starboard the mobo could have continued.

That said, once it became obvious that the mobo was going through anyway the dinghy should have tacked away rather than going behind
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Where exactly was the MoBo supposed to go? It's proceeding correctly up the starboard side of the channel. Are you suggesting that MoBo's should move to the middle of the channel whenever they meet a dinghy so they have room to manoeuvre in case the dinghy decides to tack?

I don't think the ColReg's really work in these circumstances - the MoBo is the Stand On vessel by virtue of being Power and possibly as overtaking vessel. The dinghy is therefore required to hold her course and speed - but he obviously can't as there's a river bank in the way. Instead he tacks directly into the MoBo's path, also not allowed as he's creating a collision situation. All he had to do though was tack a little earlier instead of trying to ram the MoBo :)

Sheer common sense would say the MoBo's doing it's best to keep out of the way and is giving the dinghy as much room as it can - the dinghy helm should have had the brains to stay out of the MoBo's way.

Having said that I gather it was the dinghy's maiden voyage so I suspect there may have been a little bit of inattention on the surrounding goings on and also a lack of understanding exactly how fast the craft was etc. This could have been as much to blame as any lack of understanding of priorities, etc?

At the end of the day a collision was avoided and I didn't even hear any insults being hurled so it's not the end of the world. If you multiply that dinghy by about 20, make the edge of the channel that the MoBo's limited to invisible, throw in a few more MoBo's and yachts, and then increase the speed of the dinghies considerably you start to get the situation in some of the harbours on the South Coast.
 
What a bunch of barrack room lawyers! Nothing happened except some foul mouthed obscenities, so there really is nothing to debate.
 
grumpy_o_g said:
Where exactly was the MoBo supposed to go? It's proceeding correctly up the starboard side of the channel. Are you suggesting that MoBo's should move to the middle of the channel whenever they meet a dinghy so they have room to manoeuvre in case the dinghy decides to tack?...
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You are allowed to go round things.
grumpy_o_g said:
...the MoBo is the Stand On vessel by virtue of being Power and possibly as overtaking vessel...
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That's an interesting statement.
 
l'escargot said:
That's an interesting statement.
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Why do you say that? Being as it's inland also sorts of byelaws could apply but, ignoring that and restricted in ability to manouevre type factors, is that not a true statement under ColRegs? I'm not looking for a fight at all - I deliberately posted my opinion to see what others would say.
 
grumpy_o_g said:
Why do you say that? Being as it's inland also sorts of byelaws could apply but, ignoring that and restricted in ability to manouevre type factors, is that not a true statement under ColRegs? I'm not looking for a fight at all - I deliberately posted my opinion to see what others would say.
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I think he says it's an interesting statement because I think what you wrote was probably the exact opposite of what you intended! (i.e. the mobo is the give way vesssel, not the stand-on vessel).

The "pecking order" rule (18) requires a power driven vessel to keep out of the way of a sailing vessel (not vice versa), and the overtaking rule (13) requires the overtaking vessel to keep clear (not vice versa).

I can't see anything here to suggest that the motor boat was not obliged to give way to the sailing boat.
BUT
the motor boat had put itself into an almost impossible situation by being too close to the river bank. It could not alter course to starboard, and it may not have been able to speed up.

Rule 17 gives the stand on vessel ( the sailing boat) the option of taking action as soon as it becomes apparent that the other is not taking appropriate action. I'm with the OP on this: I think he left it later than he should have done. If there had been a collision, I believe the insurance companies would have shared liability fairly evenly.
 
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OK I cannot see video on present internet so with a different perspective:

Middle of channel why not? If has had chance to see repetitive patern of tacking he will know when is best to get passed. It does not matter which side if over taking...

Its a rare occasion where over taking vessel has right of way sail or motor.

For the dinghy, if he had a bank in the way he had 2 choices, tack in front of motor boat or go aground? Who created this situation?
1) Sailing boat trying to overtake?
2) Motorboat wanting to over take?

Maybe the sailing boat had been waiting to tack to give Mobo Chance to over take?

I certainly do not know what each boat was thinking we all have moments where we realise we could of handled a situation better. Its life its boats...

Let them go unless you want to do an Ainslie :D:D:D
 
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Ah yes, apologies. I did of course mean that the MoBo was the "give way" vessel and that the dinghy therefore had to hold her course and speed, etc.
 
onesea said:
OK I cannot see video on present internet so with a different perspective:

Middle of channel why not? If has had chance to see repetitive patern of tacking he will know when is best to get passed. It does not matter which side if over taking...

Its a rare occasion where over taking vessel has right of way sail or motor.

For the dinghy, if he had a bank in the way he had 2 choices, tack in front of motor boat or go aground? Who created this situation?
1) Sailing boat trying to overtake?
2) Motorboat wanting to over take?

Maybe the sailing boat had been waiting to tack to give Mobo Chance to over take?

I certainly do not know what each boat was thinking we all have moments where we realise we could of handled a situation better. Its life its boats...

Let them go unless you want to do an Ainslie :D:D:D
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You'll see when you watch the video. The dinghy takes around 10 seconds bank to bank. The mobo is clearly holding course and speed at the edge of the water. The easiest solution would be for the dinghy to have tacked back sooner.
If the mobo had slowed, he probably couldn't have sped up on the next pair of tacks sufficiently to get past.
If he sped up he may have been breaking the speed limit which is probably very slow on that waterway.
If he had turned behind the dinghy, it would have then tacked back into his path and hit him anyway.
I don't see a course of action on the part of the mobo which would have avoided any of this. The dinghy seemed intent on confrontation, knew the mobo was there and its course and speed and aimed right at it.
 
grumpy_o_g said:
Why do you say that? Being as it's inland also sorts of byelaws could apply but, ignoring that and restricted in ability to manouevre type factors, is that not a true statement under ColRegs? I'm not looking for a fight at all - I deliberately posted my opinion to see what others would say.
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As Tim said, I wondered whether you had just got it the wrong way round. Restricted in ability to manouvre is unlikely to come into it though, unless the motorboat was engaged in some sort of activity that imposed a restriction on it. I think constrained by draft is unlikely either at the side of the river.

Whatever the cause of the close quarters, or where the fault lay, the motorboat had equal responsibility to avoid collison once it became apparent be it by slowing down, going round the dinghy or any means whatever. Standing on regardless by both parties at the late stage was wrong.
 
wotayottie said:
What a bunch of barrack room lawyers! Nothing happened except some foul mouthed obscenities, so there really is nothing to debate.
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I don't often agree with you, but I have to say, that it's a load of hot air about a non event.
 
sigmasailor said:
Mobo was on the starboard side of a channel and had the right of way. Dinghy should have tacked sooner. Simple (Dutch regs).
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I don't think Dutch regs apply - but I agree that the dinghy should've tacked sooner - no point bearing away - you just loose all that ground to windward!
 
lustyd said:
You'll see when you watch the video. The dinghy takes around 10 seconds bank to bank. The mobo is clearly holding course and speed at the edge of the water. The easiest solution would be for the dinghy to have tacked back sooner.
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Agree

lustyd said:
If the mobo had slowed, he probably couldn't have sped up on the next pair of tacks sufficiently to get past.
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Hmm - don't think so...
He could've slowed down to get to the dinghy just after he tacked on the Stb bank - then resume speed - by the time the dinghy had gone over and back he'd be long gone... A lot of skippers forget the throttle can be eased back as well as forward!!

lustyd said:
If he sped up he may have been breaking the speed limit which is probably very slow on that waterway.
If he had turned behind the dinghy, it would have then tacked back into his path and hit him anyway.
I don't see a course of action on the part of the mobo which would have avoided any of this. The dinghy seemed intent on confrontation, knew the mobo was there and its course and speed and aimed right at it.
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The mobo skipper could have easily avoided this - as could the dinghy skipper ...

What we don't see is what's going on to windward of all this - and that can have an affect on the desired actions ...
 
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