Sail trim - how to learn best

[DangerousPirate]

Today I was out with a friend of mine and we sailed. Here in the medway you always face the wind when go out. It was a nice day but I made it a lot more stressful on me than I should have. The boat didn't react as I wanted, and that just frustrated me. Granted. I have limited sailing experience and it obviously is a learning curve. I especially struggle with close hauled sailing.

Everytime I go close I sheet as tight as much as I can, bring the main sheet traveller across to the windward side, and then just get blown off and pushed off course. The sails are not flapping yet I get pushed off to 90-100 degrees before I can catch myself.

I don't even necessarily try to tack and yet I can't go close hauled. Or as close hauled as I'd like.

There is barely any heeling but only because I get pushed off course by the wind before. I wouldn't mind that to be honest, but I just can't seem to hold course. Pushed off, away from the wind. That's all.

Of course I must do something wrong but I am not sure what it.

How do I improve?

 

[MADRIGAL]

I wonder if your rig is set up to give you lee helm - which means that the boat naturally turns to leeward (away from the wind), and that you have to push the tiller to leeward (or turn the wheel to windward) to try to force the boat up toward the wind. Most sailing boats are set up with a slight degree of weather helm, which means that they turn toward the wind if you let go of the helm.

Lee helm is caused having the centre of effort of the sail plan forward of the centre of lateral resistance of the hull. Effectively, this means too much sail forward of the keel, not enough sail aft of the keel. Adjusting the rig so that the mast is raked aft (leaning toward the stern) might solve the problem. This is achieved by lengthening the forestay and shortening the shrouds and backstays. If your boat has a pivoting centreplate (like many dinghies and trailer sailers), ensuring it is down all the way when close hauled brings the centre of lateral resistance forward.
Equally important as mast rake is ensuring that the mast is straight up and down, leaning to neither port nor starboard.
Trim - the way the hull sits in the water - can also make a difference. If there is too much weight in the bow, the mast will be tipped forward and the keel aft, which could lead to lee helm and lift part of the rudder out of the water, making for difficult steering. Moving more weight (stores, water, fuel, crew, moveable ballast) to the centre of the boat or even toward the stern would correct this.
Good luck with your boat. These things can be really frustrating and no two boats respond exactly the same to rig adjustments, so there is a large element of trial and error.

 

[DangerousPirate]

I am sailing a Westerly Cirrus, which is a 22 fin keel trailer sailer, masthead sloop with a fin keel but with relative heavy ballast of 1,5-2 tons.

The problems I have occured whether it was a port or starboard tack -so I assume it has nothing to do with ballast but just how I handle the boat. Although, when in harbour, I can see the boat leaning3-5degrees to starboard due to weight, especially when I am on and I sit on the starboard side, Other than that it is relavitely evened out.

So I was in a pub after the sail and someone I talked to mentioned that I would (maybe) sheet in the sails to hard and I should leave some curvature to it. If it is too flat the wind would just straight push me off course instead of giving me a forward momentum. Don't know how accurate that advice is.

 

[CPD]

Use a tiller pilot. Get the sails set up, on any point of sail, and then play by sheeting main and genoa in and out and then see how the tiller pilot is forced to react to maintain course. This will show you how every boat has a "point of rotation". Gradually alter the tiller pilot until you are nearly close hauled then do the same thing. This how I learned about sail balance etc and is why I prefer a tiller steered boat as you can immediately see what the tiller is doing and then reflect on what that means about the set of the sails.

 

[Laminar Flow]

May I ask what kind of boat you sail?

After tacking it is important to first get speed up, even if you have to fall off a little to make this happen. The reason for this is that in order for your keel to produce lift to counteract leeway you must be moving forward at some speed, else your keel will stall, just as a plane will stall when going to slow, and you will simply be going sideways. Lift increases to the square of the speed. The narrower and shorter the keel, the more pronounced this effect will be. Going to weather it often pays to have the boat footing faster than trying to sail as close as possible - the real point of interest here is VGM or velocity made good. Modern interfaced instruments can be quite helpful here as they can quickly calculate and give you a constant readout of what your VGM at any given time is.

Next, do you have tell tales on your sails? Luffing is only part of the equation and it is quite possible to stall out your sails by simply hauling them in too tight. In this case they will be generating excessive side force and little forward drive.
You want the telltale pairs on the genny to lie quietly and parallel to one another and over the entire length of the luff, on the main the telltales are on the leach and should flow straight and without any undue fluttering or curling around in line with the sail ( you might be surprised to find how far the main sheet needs to be freed to make this so. Old rule of thumb was to let the main out until it luffs and then haul it in just a couple of inches. Telltales are cheap.

There are plenty more subtleties to play around with, but these main pointers should get you started and sailing in the right direction.

The quickest way to learn would be to join a racing crew and make right a nuisance of yourself by asking lots of questions. You will also get shouted at a lot, but that sharpens up the learning curve something powerful.

Best of luck.

 

[thinwater]

You could always ask a expereinced sailor to go out with you for an hour. Could be fun for both parties. There's telling, and there is showing. I assume you have read up on the topic, so a demonstration might work better.

 

[Daydream believer]

The best way is to get an experienced sailor to take you for a sail in 12 kts of wind to show you how
Boats like yours do not have sails set like a race boat. You have a bige keeler which will not point as high anyway.
Get some woolies for the jib, Google how & where to fit them. You can do it with bits of wool & a sewing needle to save cost & put extras in if you are not sure where
Just tighten the jib halyard enough to keep the luff straight taking out the creases & not pull the flow forward too much. Do not part furl the jib, it will just make a baggy mess & not help learning at the start.You will be Ok in 10-12 kts of wind for example
. I have not sailed a Cirrius, but I expect the genoa does overlap the spreader so just sheet the jib in so it is just clear of it & not rammed in tight
Adjust the sheet car position so that when you are going to windward the woolies break evenly- google that one -
The main should not be bought to the centre line in spite of all the pictures one sees. Start with it such that the boom is more over the cockpit seating. Keep the traveller, if you have one, central so you do not pull down too hard at first. This should allow the boom to lift a little thus allowing some curvature in the leech. The kicker will allow the boom to lift a bit as I doubt that you have a very strong one.
Main halyard tension should start with enough to keep the luff rope just evenly tensioned, to start with. It gets increased as the wind rises. The foot tension needs to be adjustable & not rammed tight. Just enough to give a flattish curve but not stretched hard flat
When sailing allow the boat to pick up speed & worry less about pinching, more about speed. Then one can gradually bring the boat up to the wind to a point where the windward tell tale ( wooly) starts to lift off the sail, then bear off a touch then luff a touch. That way you will find the sweet spot.
The main will back wind from the Genny but do not worry too much at first. you can play with it as you go. But hard in is not going to suit a cirrius I expect.
Fix some woolies to the leech of the mainsail- one per batten- with the top one on the end of the top batten. You should be able to get them all streaming. Then when you are correct the top one will be just stalling. As a guide the top batten should be roughly parallel with the boom which will indicate the correct twist as a starting point. If you cannot acheive that then it may be that the draught in the sail is too far aft. This will happen in older sails. You can pull it forward a bit by tightening the halyard but do not do this at first.

Sail with the rags a bit free may be the way to go.
Of course, if the rags are rags - Well
Not being a Westerly owner I have not been on the westerly site. You may get tips there

 

[DFL1010]

Sounds like the foils are stalling, meaning you're getting all the leeway without the forward motion.

Speed then height is the key phrase: crack the sheets a touch, bear away, then as you accelerate, you can sheet in and go.

A bit of growth on the hull will make a big difference in this too, so that might be a culprit at this time of the year.

 

[LadyInBed]

Do you have 'Tell Tails' near the luff of the foresail and down the leech of the main?

 

[crewman]

You say you are sheeting in as tight as possible, then bringing the traveller to windward. This may bring the main to the windward side of the boat, thus in effect stalling it. Try keeping the traveller centred and allowing the main to be just on the leeward side.

 

[thinwater]

The best way is to get an experienced sailor to take you for a sail in 12 kts of wind to show you how
Boats like yours do not have sails set like a race boat. You have a bige keeler which will not point as high anyway.
Get some woolies for the jib, Google how & where to fit them. You can do it with bits of wool & a sewing needle to save cost & put extras in if you are not sure where
Just tighten the jib halyard enough to keep the luff straight taking out the creases & not pull the flow forward too much. Do not part furl the jib, it will just make a baggy mess & not help learning at the start.You will be Ok in 10-12 kts of wind for example
. I have not sailed a Cirrius, but I expect the genoa does overlap the spreader so just sheet the jib in so it is just clear of it & not rammed in tight
Adjust the sheet car position so that when you are going to windward the woolies break evenly- google that one -
The main should not be bought to the centre line in spite of all the pictures one sees. Start with it such that the boom is more over the cockpit seating. Keep the traveller, if you have one, central so you do not pull down too hard at first. This should allow the boom to lift a little thus allowing some curvature in the leech. The kicker will allow the boom to lift a bit as I doubt that you have a very strong one.
Main halyard tension should start with enough to keep the luff rope just evenly tensioned, to start with. It gets increased as the wind rises. The foot tension needs to be adjustable & not rammed tight. Just enough to give a flattish curve but not stretched hard flat
When sailing allow the boat to pick up speed & worry less about pinching, more about speed. Then one can gradually bring the boat up to the wind to a point where the windward tell tale ( wooly) starts to lift off the sail, then bear off a touch then luff a touch. That way you will find the sweet spot.
The main will back wind from the Genny but do not worry too much at first. you can play with it as you go. But hard in is not going to suit a cirrius I expect.
Fix some woolies to the leech of the mainsail- one per batten- with the top one on the end of the top batten. You should be able to get them all streaming. Then when you are correct the top one will be just stalling. As a guide the top batten should be roughly parallel with the boom which will indicate the correct twist as a starting point. If you cannot acheive that then it may be that the draught in the sail is too far aft. This will happen in older sails. You can pull it forward a bit by tightening the halyard but do not do this at first.

Sail with the rags a bit free may be the way to go.
Of course, if the rags are rags - Well
Not being a Westerly owner I have not been on the westerly site. You may get tips there

Exactly. I suspect trailer sailor sails a bit like a cruising cat in some ways, only slower.

• Start with the sails free on a beam reach and gradually trim and point higher, never loosing speed.
• When you tack, go WELL past the eye of the wind until the true wind is on the beam. Then start back up to windward.
• The traveller may never come above the centerline. That is a rule of thumb that works for some boats and not others. More likely, the traveler should always be slightly below the centerline.
• Don't over sheet the jib either. The jib should not backwind the main.
• Don't try to point high. Start lower and work up to it.
• Balance. Look at the helm angle. The tiller should never be more than ~ 4-6 degrees above the CL. More than that and it is stalled and working as a brake. Improve balance by traveling down the main a little.

It's a lot of things. The most important is to keep the boat moving forward so that there is flow over the keel. Stub keels stall easily. Ease the sails and go forward. It's not a slender boat an is never going to point high and fast. That's OK, so long as it's fun.

 

[westernman]

Everytime I go close I sheet as tight as much as I can, bring the main sheet traveller across to the windward side, and then just get blown off and pushed off course. The sails are not flapping yet I get pushed off to 90-100 degrees before I can catch myself.

On a boat like yours, you should not have the main sheet traveller on the windward side. You may well be blowing the boat backwards - at least not much forwards.

Do not try to move the traveller to the windward side until you are moving at a reasonable speed pretty close to the wind - say about 60 degrees to true wind direction and then check what happens.

Once you have the boat moving at 60 degrees to true wind, you can then gradually luff up a bit until you work out the closest you can sail to the wind. Then experiment with the sail trim to see what helps you point higher and move faster. Don't expect to point at 40 degrees to the true wind like a racing boat. Yours won't do that. Be happy with 55-60.

 

[ianat182]

If you are sailing single handed and need to tack - both jib and mainsail , set the boom central or just to leeward from the centre of the traveller and secure the mainsheet in its jammer; prior to this ensure the windward jib sheet is already loose but with at least 2 turns around the windward winch-( always leave the windward sheet in this state then you will always have instant access to it when you tack).
Head up the yacht on close-hauled course until the luff nearest to the mast starts to slightly 'pant' ( if you've fitted some telltales to the jib they will also lift upwards ; similarly if fitted to the mainsail these will also lift ,from a horizontal state these indicate that you are too far to windward.
Bear away , slightly ,until the tell-tales go back to their horizontal position.
You are now close hauled. Secure the mainsheet.
With sufficient boat speed you may now get ready to tack.
As a novice imagine that your new direction is about 90 degrees from the last one , choose a mark or direction to sail toward when the tack is completed.
Before tacking release the mainsheet to leeward- just off centre then secure it.
Start pointing the yacht , allowing the leeward jib sheet to stay fixed and pushing the bow round until it fully flaps then release the sheet quickly from the winch, grab opposite jib sheet, tighten in, then secure.
Free the mainsheet to your hand and get the tell tales working as described (horizontal ) .
You now have time to secure the released jibsheet ready on its winch for the next tack.
After doing this four or five times you will get into a rhythm and be able to tack pretty quickly when needed.
If you were in a sailing dinghy single handed it would be slightly different.
The traveller can be used to reduce heel by letting it off gradually outwards in stronger wind with full sail, perhaps then thinking about a reef in the mainsail too, but that is another learning method.
There is no need to rush the tack unless in an emergency situation to avoid other craft or objects


I owned and sailed the 25ft Westerly Tiger - big sister to your Cirrus and they can be quite quick but forgiving and this is the method I used throughout inland cruising, when racing I had a crew obviously, but we did pretty well after moving from our Merlin Rocket dinghy.
Good luck !


ianat182

 

[Concerto]

I think a lot of your problems are due to slack rigging and poor halyard tension. If I was not so busy getting ready for my Fulmar to be at the Southampton Show,I would suggest coming out for a sail on Concerto (based Chatham Marina) and then follow up with me aboard your Cirrus. If you can wait until late Sept or early Oct, then I will be happy to help.

 

[ianat182]

Just a follow-up to ask if you are sailing with the genoa as opposed to a jib as this can also be a problem on the Tiger. I had mine reduced in area by the local sailmaker to about 2/3rds of its area. The difference in sailing was amazing, previously overpowered in say F4 she handled beautifully when shortened , and with a working jib also.
If it is a genoa try furling it to about 2/3rds and she'll love it.

My old Tiger was sold to a guy in Gillingham Marina also on the Medway. He painted her Bright Red so can be seen for some distance I should think. She was 'IANA' then T182 !
Maybe you'll see her there.

ianat182

 

[DangerousPirate]

Just a follow-up to ask if you are sailing with the genoa as opposed to a jib as this can also be a problem on the Tiger. I had mine reduced in area by the local sailmaker to about 2/3rds of its area. The difference in sailing was amazing, previously overpowered in say F4 she handled beautifully when shortened , and with a working jib also.
If it is a genoa try furling it to about 2/3rds and she'll love it.

My old Tiger was sold to a guy in Gillingham Marina also on the Medway. He painted her Bright Red so can be seen for some distance I should think. She was 'IANA' then T182 !
Maybe you'll see her there.

ianat182

I think I recently met the guy who bought your boat, he named her Iana again and is currently on the medway on some mooring buoys, he's sometimes up at Sun Pier.
Chatted a bit with him about boats when he was about to leave the guest pontoon of chatham marina in his kayak.

I could be wrong though, but that would be a huge coincidence with the Tiger, the name, the location, the colour etc.

@Everyone else: Thank you for all these wonderful tips. I had a read now and think I learned a thing or two, will definitely go out later this week and try to test it out.


The main thing I did wrong was probably that I sheeted in too hard. Maybe I also tried to point to high for my boat and that's why we were "thrown back". The helm simply wasn't balanced and the headsail had a lot more power and tried to push the bow away from the wind. I had to countersteer a lot and the only thing that helped was to ease the jib at that point, which just was against what I have been taught before (when out with a mate and his boat btw).
Potentially also that I didn't have enough speed to begin with. I had similar problems before on a different boat when I tried to tack, but then i didn't have the problems with the lee helm then, and this confused me a bit now on my own boat. The way to go is really to just grab a mate of mine and just get that demonstration. One can only read so much but the real aha-moment will only come when you see it.
I'm a bit more confident that I will get this right soon now.

 

[ianat182]

Delighted to hear that the old girl is still on the water. If you check on the Cirus orTiger history they were very good sailers and surprisingly won a boat test for their type run by one of the Yachting magazines shortly after their introduction; so it is a good pedigree!
Even at 22ft you could be faster than a Westerly Centaur certainly IANA was !
Back to the thread ,and your reply now.

I'm sure that ,as someone else commented, the mainsail was over- sheeted to windward on the traveller .This is almost similar to getting your boat to 'heave-to' and stop forward motion in the water when you may have any problem or need to use the 'head '. This is something to practice after you gain a bit more sailing experience.

When doing it your jib is held fast on the 'wrong' side and mainsail eased and set as if a close reach, and the helm held to leeward as if tacking. the result is that the boat's forward motion is cancelled by the backwinding of the jib and the mainsail cannot tack as normal; the result is that the yacht will go sideways very slowly until the jibsheet is released and sheeted normally. and the main pulled in tighter. This is useful to have a rest for while one's doing some necessary job. o f course you do need to keep watch and decide whether you are getting too close to any obstructions,boats,land or whatever. Pity you aren't local to me here in the Hamble area I'd work you through the stages you require but I now have no yacht and at my age I'm enjoying other pastimes.

ianat182

 

[johnalison]

I used to own a Westerly Cirrus and it was a very easy boat to sail, so clearly you are doing something very wrong. I think one problem is that you are not allowing the boat to build up speed before trimming the sails. After a tack, or when starting off, the main needs to be eased off so that it presents the correct slant to the wind. In other words, when stationary or sailing slowly the apparent wind will move aft and you will see the burgee or Windex at an angle of maybe 60 degrees from the bow. Set the main, and jib too if you can be bothered, to the angle you would when sailing on a reach, and as the boat picks up speed pull it in, but only until the boom is near the centreline.

A small boat like the Cirrus can't be sailed as close to the wind as a modern 35-footer, so settle for a moderate course to start with. What matters is speed through the water, without which the rudder will do nothing, and you may well make better ground to windward sailing at 35-40 degrees to the apparent wind than a similar boat trying to get it up to 30. When properly set up, a Cirrus will sail itself to windward. There is no need to 'steer' it, just apply the right amount of pressure on the helm and it will find its own way, far better than many modern boats.

 

[Major_Clanger]

In addition to the great advice you've already received, I'd suggest you might be 'pinching' a bit. That means you're trying to sail too close to the wind. This'll make the boat feel lifeless, especially if coupled with over-sheeted sails.

If you find yourself in Essex or Suffolk then you'd be welcome to come out on Vim for a day (Co26) and play about.