Sail Powered Commercial Fishing Boat in the UK...

Many thanks to all who have responded...

It turns out that the current situation is covered here:
Fisheries Act 2020

Fisheries Act 2020 c.22 S.14(2)(c) applies where commercial fishing is undertaken "by a boat whose length is 10 metres or less and which does not have an engine to power the boat"

There are various other relaxations in the rules covering vessels <10m outlined in the MMO guidance which I would like to be able to link back to "chapter and verse" as Sarabande put it. Any lawyers out there want to help pro bono?

:)
 
I've heard of this exemption as well, in Scotland where the rules are not set by the MMO. It's also not a new thing and I don't think it has anything at all to do with environmental concerns. It's definitely more of a loop hole than a concerted attempt to encourage people to give up their engines.

My gut feeling is that the reason no license is required is because the engine power is a key part of the VCU (Vessel Capacity Units) calculation. If you have no engine then you can't have any VCU and the whole thing falls apart. But that's just a guess, I will ask my local fishery office tonight.
 
So sorry Kelpie - my earlier post took a while to show up.
I would be interested to know where the earlier legislation started to promote smaller boats.

Len - I am wondering if I could compete with the motorised ring netters. Also pots.
 
Kelpie said:
My gut feeling is that the reason no license is required is because the engine power is a key part of the VCU (Vessel Capacity Units) calculation. If you have no engine then you can't have any VCU and the whole thing falls apart. But that's just a guess, I will ask my local fishery office tonight.
Click to expand...

I suspect it might have been more about grandfathering-in small been-doing-this-since-time-immemorial operations when the rules were first set up, and the exception has been maintained ever since because it would take a conscious decision to change it. But I'm only speculating.

The electric motor angle is a nonsense. It's still a motor.

There are or were (I suspect "were" by now) large fishing schooners in Canada that operated under a similar no-engine exemption to get round a lot of rules. They're described in Thomas Colvin's Steel Boatbuilding book. They would have a sturdy tender with a substantial outboard and push-tow in and out of harbour - the tender's engine didn't count for the purposes of the rules.

Pete
 
Hi prv. Many thanks for your opinion... or are you citing some sort of precedent or statute that I can confirm?
To me the statute seems clear. It refers specifically to an engine eg. a primary source of power, rather than a motor which is a consumer of power.
I can find no statute that specifically bars the use of, for instance, electric bow thrusters, which might categorically change the nature of a vessel from a sail boat to a power boat. The only similar situation I can find is that linked to electric vs petrol engines on a bicycle.
 
CaptinHaddock said:
an engine eg. a primary source of power, rather than a motor which is a consumer of power.
Click to expand...

You apparently don't understand what power is, and this distinction is meaningless.

There might be a legal loophole for electric motors, though I doubt it, but it won't be on the basis of this "producing / consuming power" gibberish.

Pete
 
The definition of engine is quite clear;

A machine with moving parts that converts power into motion. - Oxford English. There is no 'legal definition' of this word.

There is however a legal definition of 'motor' and makes me concur with prv that there is no exemption. You stick a motor on the boat, electric or otherwise that is used to propel the boat at any time... and you're gonna need a license.

Motor: "1. Conversion device making mechanical energy or imparting motion from electrical or other energy. 2. Muscular movement concerns or involvement." - Blacks Law Dictionary

Since it seems the Falmouth guys need a license even though they only use their engines for going in and out of port... I'd suggest that any propulsive device attached to the boat will incur the same requirement.

Unfortunately the only place the OP is going to get a sound answer to this is from the MMO... and I think they've already given their verdict, which the OP doesn't like.
 
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Again - thanks for your opinions.

The only sensible support I can find straight off is an abstract from the American Journal of Rocketry...

Motor or Engine? On the Proper Usage of Terms
AIAA Aerospace Research Central

According to Marshall Naul, writing in that Journal ...

"The main point of difference is that an engine is an energy transformer, complete in itself and requiring no independent source of potential energy to function aside from a fuel resovior. An engine effects in one unit the combined functions of a generator and a converter. Distinctly different from this is the motor which is dependent on an outside source of energy..."

So aparently there is a difference, despite your opinions to the contrary.
 
"Aside from a fuel resovior" I assume he means reservoir. Do you happen to know what a battery is? It's a store of energy, just like the water behind a hydroelectric dam, or the fuel in tank for an ICE. Therefore as your own source points out...

An engine transforms one energy type to another. It cannot 'generate' energy out of nothing... you'd be violating the First Law of Thermodynamics. (Does not quite apply at the Quantum level but I'm assuming your engine is not that advanced. See a Quantum Physicist for more details on the expansion of the universe).

Edit:

To sum Marshall Naul's point...

An Engine typically has its own store of energy AND a motor (the conversion part). A motor is simply a device that converts one form of energy to another.

Edit 2:

Huh I never actually considered that a Turbine was an engine... (just a really large one because the reservoir is still attached to it...).
 
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:) the clue is in the journal name - it's an Americanized spelling of the word.
(Not really - it's a typo on my behalf. Copy/Paste wouldn't work on that site!)

It's plain to me that the purpose of that legislation is to control the expansion of powered fishing vessels. I do not imagine that the MCA, MMO or anyone else would suggest that denying sail based vessels access to emergency power was in the public interest!
 
OK so off the top of her head my tame fishery officer says that it stems from a combination of MCA and fisheries rules. It appears that you cannot register a commercial fishing vessel without an engine- that's the MCA's side of it. And the licensing legislation then can't take account of a boat that isn't MCA registered. The engine power should be stated in Kw so it doesn't sound as though any distinction would be drawn between electric motors or conventional engines.
 
Kelpie - thanks for your input and for taking the time to talk to your local fisheries officer. They say that proof is in the pudding ... I will let you know how it goes in practice.
 
I value the ideas and opinions here ... but would be foolish to base any action on the word of some unknown person "from the internet".

I am hoping to meet someone already operating one of these boats and get the lowdown, or at least their view of the situation, so I can direct my reading towards any sticking points.

I have learned that ...
1) there are other commercial fishing boats operating under sail.
2) there will be resistance to the idea.
3) there is strong resistance to the idea of suplimenting sails with an electric motor, and disagreement as to what constitutes an engine in this context.
4) there is room for interpretation of the rules contained in the Fisheries Act 202 s.14.
5) the sticking points will likley be in the areas of MCA registration of a new vessel (despite the relaxations there for vessels <10m).
6) Maybe a boat <7m would be more appropriate.
7) there is a good deal of wriggle room for the legislators / regulators to deny registration.
8) distrust anyone who has a cute little seal as their avatar ... (joke?)
...and so on.
 
i used to hand haul 100 lobster pots daily with a 12 foot boat and a seagull engine-----times past before engines it took 2 men to row/sail round the same area i and pull 45 pots -------with a small rowing/sailing boat you could pull trammel nets---conger trots or handline for mackeral---- but if you need to make money i don t think its viable-------------also i always thought that you can catch fish but it would an offence to sell it
 
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