Safety lines - 2 or 3 clip?

[Woodlouse]

Not on the planet I inhabit.

If your entire weight is being supported by your safety harness then to unclip it you need to hold all your weight on one arm, while you use the other hand to manipulate the clip. I don't know which planet you are living on if that is easier than cutting the line.

Does anyone recall how the lady who went overboard the Irish Sea last year freed herself from her overboard tow/drowning situation?

If it was the same lady mentioned earlier she managed to slip herself out of her life jacket.

 

[dt4134]

... routine foredeck work does not require a second line it is just another thing to get wrapped up in by accident.

So you go forward during an overnight race and want to transfer to the leeward jackstay to get the spinnaker ready, how do you do it?

Is that not routine foredeck work? Is it not best accomplished with a three hook safety line?

 

[jonjo]

If your entire weight is being supported by your safety harness then to unclip it you need to hold all your weight on one arm, while you use the other hand to manipulate the clip.

Weight does not enter the equation, are you familiar with the concept of buoyancy? Dynamic water flow is by far your greatest concern. Now imagine fumbling for a knife, reaching up and applying effective cutting stroke.

I am not claiming to be 100% right on this matter but I would like both options available.

 

[jonjo]

So you go forward during an overnight race

Of the readership here you have just excluded 90% of people with the "overnight race" bit.

to get the spinnaker ready, how do you do it?

A twice a season event for 90% of readers here.

Is that not routine foredeck work?

Demonstrably not given my figures.

 

[Woodlouse]

Weight does not enter the equation, are you familiar with the concept of buoyancy? Dynamic water flow is by far your greatest concern. Now imagine fumbling for a knife, reaching up and applying effective cutting stroke.

I am not claiming to be 100% right on this matter but I would like both options available.

A safety line should stop you well short of floating in the water. If not then your line is to long, or your jacklines are too slack, or you've already sunk.

 

[Woodlouse]

So you go forward during an overnight race and want to transfer to the leeward jackstay to get the spinnaker ready, how do you do it?

Is that not routine foredeck work? Is it not best accomplished with a three hook safety line?

Personally, and I wouldn't endorse this, I don't use a safety line for routine foredeck work. The weather has got to be pretty atrocious and the job in question to be particularly hazardous before I start restricting my movements and agility by clipping on to a jackstay.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

A safety line should stop you well short of floating in the water. If not then your line is to long, or your jacklines are too slack, or you've already sunk.

That MAY work on a reasonable size boat but on a 26' foot boat you be constantly adjusting the line. I can state categorically that a 3' line on a jack stay on a Stella But will allow a man to float in the water.

 

[jonjo]

A safety line should stop you well short of floating in the water.

So on your perfectly set-up high freeboard yacht you are half overboard, mostly dry and your first instinct is to cut the line?

 

[Woodlouse]

That MAY work on a reasonable size boat but on a 26' foot boat you be constantly adjusting the line. I can state categorically that a 3' line on a jack stay on a Stella But will allow a man to float in the water.

You can't have guardrails in that case. If you're going to be pedantic of course you can have boats that'll allow you to sit happily floating along side while clipped on. But I think you'd find yourself in the minority.

 

[Woodlouse]

So on your perfectly set-up high freeboard yacht you are half overboard, mostly dry and your first instinct is to cut the line?

No.

Is your first instinct to unclip yourself?

 

[jonjo]

You can't have guardrails in that case.

Silly boy.

We are discussing what happens when things go wrong, that includes people sliding overboard under rails.

 

[jonjo]

Is your first instinct to unclip yourself?

We were discussing your original assertion about unclipping under gravitational dead weight. I maintain this is not the main scenario that should concern you.

The thing about accidents and emergencies is that they are chaotic frighting and don't following text book best form. I want options and not a Spinlock designed death trap.

Your whole premiss in this debate is that Spinlock cannot be found at fault.

 

[Woodlouse]

Silly boy.

We are discussing what happens when things go wrong, that includes people sliding overboard under rails.

True enough. But I still maintain that in any emergency situation that leads to you having to detach yourself from the boat it is quicker, and easier to cut the line rather that unclip it.

If your topsides are low enough for you to be in the water, and you are able to take the weight off the clip to undo it, then using the same strength you can get back onto the boat. If the boat is towing you and you cannot climb back aboard, then it is unlikely you could unclip either.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

You can't have guardrails in that case. If you're going to be pedantic of course you can have boats that'll allow you to sit happily floating along side while clipped on. But I think you'd find yourself in the minority.

But the guard-rails give (assuming they survive). Try standing on the guardrails and see how far from the toe-rail they are, assuming they don't give way. That's roughly the sort of pressure they could be getting on them. A Stella But's not that much different from most sub 30 footers of today unless it's a flush deck or similar with a very high free-board. By the time the Jack-stay's given a bit, the guard-rail's compressed and the harness has moved up several inches with all the loads on them even a short safety-line needs a centre-line jackstay on a smaller boat to keep clear of the water and they just aren't practical most of the time.

 

[Woodlouse]

But the guard-rails give (assuming they survive). Try standing on the guardrails and see how far from the toe-rail they are, assuming they don't give way. That's roughly the sort of pressure they could be getting on them. A Stella But's not that much different from most sub 30 footers of today unless it's a flush deck or similar with a very high free-board. By the time the Jack-stay's given a bit, the guard-rail's compressed and the harness has moved up several inches with all the loads on them even a short safety-line needs a centre-line jackstay on a smaller boat to keep clear of the water and they just aren't practical most of the time.

Guard rails should be strong enough to take a fair amount of force. They're not much use if they collapse when hit by the weight of a man. Though to be honest I wouldn't like to test this theory on most guard rails you see.

But anyway, as I mentioned previously, if you have gone over the side and a floating comfortably alongside then you are probably going to climb back on board. This whole argument came about whether it is easier to cut a safety harness, or unclip it. In the sort of situation where you would even consider cutting it, then a knife is going to be quicker and easier (if you are being towed for example) than fiddling with the clip.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The Gibb Hook can be released relatively easy single handed, when under load. I am sure that is why it is shaped the way it is.

I have tried this and demonstrated to my crews how to do this. The shape, with the gate open will keep you hooked in place but by moving the top of the hook (lever down) in the direction of the gate opening it slides off.

If one pushes back against their harness and tries this you will be able to demonstrate it to yourself. The motion relies more on levering the hook than raising your weight to lift over the hook.

 

[alant]

So you go forward during an overnight race and want to transfer to the leeward jackstay to get the spinnaker ready, how do you do it?

Is that not routine foredeck work? Is it not best accomplished with a three hook safety line?

You only hook on during night races then?

 

[fireball]

I want options and not a Spinlock designed death trap.

Options - there must be options to detach yourself quickly - relying on 1 specific method is not good enough.
A knife is a good method
A clip is a good method
A quick release pin is a good method.

Trapeze harnesses for dinghies now have quick release hooks to allow the crew to detach themselves if they get trapped underwater during a capsize. It's not all roses as some have found themselves de-clipping by accident - but this does show that it is along the right lines.

A cow hitch would not do for me - there is no option to undo it without removing the other end which may be inaccessible, or without a knife - which you may have with you, but not able to operate.

I have a mixture of 2 and 3 point life lines - the 3 are for when outside the cockpit or conditions demand it - 2 are for those more static in the cockpit.

We have some elasticated lines - these are handy if you're going to have the lifelines on you but not clipped on as it keeps the lines much shorter. (yes you can have them clipped to you but not clipped on - if you're wandering about down below or sitting in the cockpit and only need them on deck.

 

[dt4134]

You only hook on during night races then?

I hook on when I consider it appropriate.

The example given was one where I would consider a triple hooked safety line far more appropriate than a double hooked one.

 

[dt4134]

Personally, and I wouldn't endorse this, I don't use a safety line for routine foredeck work. The weather has got to be pretty atrocious and the job in question to be particularly hazardous before I start restricting my movements and agility by clipping on to a jackstay.

It depends upon the circumstances. Round the cans racing with lots of well-crewed boats nearby then a safety line is a complete nuisance and I don't know anyone that would clip on then except for very exceptional circumstances. We did threaten to cover the foredeck in Velcro for one particular bow(wo)man though

Offshore racing, particularly in heavy weather and particularly at night, then yes, I would tend to clip on. When racing offshore there are rarely nearby boats to assist.

In many ways cruising is more dangerous because you're often the only boat around and it is typically with a smaller, less-skilled crew. So I'm more likely to clip on when cruising in circumstances when I wouldn't clip on when racing.