SAFETY AT SEA AND MULTIHULLS FOR A NEWBY

[George]

I am looking to buy my first yacht early next year and am doing some reseach to that end. I want to do some ocean sailing in her with my wife, accross biscay through the med and perhaps beyond. One thing that concerns me greatly is the danger of hiting objects such as containers and other floating hazards. Something that seems to have come accross in my research is that a steel hull is much stronger than a GRP but wouldn't it sink like a stone if it actually was pierced and also they seem to be fairly few and far between for someone on a moderate budget. One solution seems to be to get a relatively small yacht say 27 to 32 foot in GRP, either an 'unsinkable' or one that could be converted to such with various bouyancy tanks, and then carry repair equipement onboard and subaqua equipement of which I've some skill in useing; the other solution that occured to me was to buy a multihull, which is unlikely to be holed on all hulls simultaneously and which doesn't carry the type of weight ballast that a monohull does, and again the repair equipement. Here though I've found a strange situation where multihulls despite thier obvious speed advantage don't seem to be anywhere near as popular and talked about as monohulls, why is this. Also something that bothers me about multihulls main catamarans really is if they are capsized in a storm, is this likely, and is there anyway of righting them on your own, ie. what are the advantages and disadvantages of mutihulls for a beginning sailor or anyone else for that matter!

 

[jamesjermain]

Your thinking is, by an large, impeccable. Cruising catamarans are pretty well unsinkable but they can capsize and are impossible to right without heavy lifting equipment.
The cases of catamaran capsize are probably less than those of monohulls sinking but it is a factor and something which weighs on buyers minds - probably unduly.

Cats should be more popular than they are and are gaining more of a following.

There are two chief drawbacks - maybe three.
1) The concept tends not to work so well in smaller sizes - say under 35ft, and since a 35ft multi costs about as much as a 38ft-40ft mono, there is a price penalty
2) Marinas don't like them and charge double fees, so, particularly on the south coast, they are very expensive to keep or you hav to find cheaper swinging moorings.
3) For most people they are an unknown quantity. They look different, handle differently and feel different.

Don't be carried away with the idea of speed. Modern cruising cats are probably, on balance, marginally faster than an equivalent length mono taken over the norm of cruising sailing. However, they are less close winded and no faster dead downwind. On a reach they can add maybe a third to your speed. However, they are very sensitive to weight and trim, so filled with all the goodies of long term life afloat, they may prove no faster at all.

The great advantages of cats are that they sail flat and have a huge amount of space. The genrally accepted arrangement is to have the saloon on teh bridge deck and sleeping accommodation in the hulls. It is almost impossible to get standing headroom on the bridge deck in cats less than 35ft long. In the sleeping cabins, by contrast, you may have up to 7ft.
Because of the need to save weight, most cats are pretty stripped out compared to monos and the joinery is lightweight. Alternatively exotic materials and expensive building methods are used which obviously have a price penalty.

Some people, even seasoned monohull sailers, find the motion of a cat difficult to get used to. Others find them much more acceptable than monos.

On balance, my view is that cats make excellent long term cruising boats and I would seriously consider this option if I was planning to do so.

One final caution, though. I don't know what your budget is, but there are very few small to medium sized (27 to 37ft) cats on the secondhand market and you can expect to pay at least £25,000 for a tatty, older model, Mid range 37ft Prout Snowgooses would cost £50,000, the 31ft Quest from £30,000 and an old 32ft Comanche from £25,000. A good option - safe but slow - is the Heavenly Twins which starts at around £15,000 and go up to £30,000. More modern designs will cost £60,000 upwards.



JJ

 

[Guest]

That reply by JJ is the best comparative assessment of mono's and multi's I have ever read!

 

[George]

Thanks for your reply it was very helpfull. Just one other thing, what about trimarans, they appear more stable because of the bigger beam, but are they a practical cruiser and what about speed. I have budgeted to spend around 10 to 15 thousand, but I guess I should be able to save a bit more if necessary.

George

 

[jamesjermain]

Trimarans

There are very few trimarans around. Current producers are Dragonflyand Corsair. There are also various one-off Kelsall tris, the Telstar and some other on-offs.

Modern tris are very fast - the Dragonfly 900 and 1000, the F24 and F27 can all reach 15 knots quite comfortably and beat at 12 knots. They are fabulously fun.

Accommodation in a 27ft tri is the equivalent of a 22 to 24ft monohull - ie pretty cramped, and at speed they are very wet, particularly with any sea running.

As for safety, they can turn over and once they have, you are in the same situation as with a cat. However, they do give more warning that you are pushing them too hard - eg when you are flying the main hull, or when the lee float is buried - and capsizes are very infrequent.

Some of the larger Kelsal tris have made serious ocean passages. The Corsairs and Dragonflies can and have crossed the Channel, but I would not describe them as ocean going.

Within your stated budget you are going to find very few tris The 27ftTelstar is about the only one.This is an older design but actually a nice boat. It is reasonably fast - 7 knots to windward - and has acceptable accommodation for four for weekends and the odd cruise of a weeks duration. It is quite capable of crossing the Channel, but again, I would not look on it as a live-aboard or ocean going design.

To find a boat for two to live on in moderate comfort at under £15,000, being realistic, you are looking at 1970s or earlier GRP 30 to 32 footer monohulls in modest condition. You might find a slightly larger, older wooden yacht, but you would also be taking a risk as to condition and certainly be taking on a lot of work. You might also find a bigger steel yacht of agricultural design which would be sound, but probably a bit unlovely.

JJ

 

[Guest]

I HAVE RECENTLY BOUGHT A NEW 43' FOUNTAINE PAJOT CAT. I PERSONALLY WOULDN'T SAIL ANYTHING ELSE, PARTICULALRY IN THE MED WHERE I LIVE. I SAILED HER DOWN FROM FRANCE RECENTLY AND THROUGH THE BAY OF BISCAY SHE WAS A DREAM.

ICAN HELP YOU WITH ANY DETAILED INFO. THE PRICE TAGE WAS SUBSTANITAL, HOWEVER AT THIS TIME THE DEPRECIATION IS VERY LOW.

I LIVE ON THE COSTA BLANCA WHERE I KEEP THE BOAT IN TORREVIEJA.

 

[George]

Re: Trimarans

Thanks again. Yes, my budget is quite limiting. I have seen some GRP monohulls which I would be quite content to sail in. I've also dug up a couple, well two, trimarans; both in America (yachts do seem to be cheaper over there), one is I think a 1980 design, it is a Jim Brown 37' wood construction described as needing a little renevation work but with lots of upto date equipement £11000 something. The other is a 36' Priver, wood again, no description, but from the photo it looks pretty ok £6000 something!. I e-mailed both the dealers for more details especially how much work was needed to make them ocean worthy, I await a reply. Another but a bit beyond my budget was a 40' one-off racer/cruiser 1980 something from England in GRP, and it looks pretty cool in the photo, £20000, if I had the money now I would be down there tonight probably. One thing that nigles me though is the cost of taking a tri through the Suis canal, would it be more expensive, I read the short piece on this topic in YM but it didn't mention tris, and perhaps based on thier internal volume they might be a bit cheaper. ps: A practicle quide to combating the dangers of floating hazards might make a good article for YM.

all the best George

 

[Guest]

For a trimaran incident that happened earlier this month, see:

http://www.townonline.com/north/marblehead/news/20590557.htm

 

[Guest]

George, Boats are indeed cheaper in the US, but be very careful if you plan to bring it back into the EU. Unless you sail it back yourself the transport cost will be close to your overall budget, and then there is duty, vat and the rcd. I would stick to finding something locally if I were you - and with your budget you can't do better than a 70's grp cruiser for value. Don't become obsessed by the container thing, chances of hitting one are still low enough to make headlines, and there are more things to concern yourself with in your first boat - seaworthyness and suitability to your intended use being the main ones. I would be surprised if you found a multihull that meets those criteria at your price.

 

[George]

Re: TRIMARAN CAPSIZE

Thanks

This is what I suspected might be a problem with trimarans and more so with cats, although to be fair it is probably very rare, but I doubt that would be a comfort if you were in that situation!

 

[vyv_cox]

George,
At the risk of appearing negative, which is not my intention at all, I would like to suggest that you take your bridges as you come to them, rather than worrying about the cost of transiting the Suez canal before you have bought your boat.

Your budget is very limited, especially since you will inevitably need more money to achieve your sailing plans. You can effectively forget multihulls - anything in your price range is likely to be in such poor condition that it would not be worth having.

Monohulls for about 12000 pounds - materials available might be GRP, steel, concrete, wood. Grp offers the widest choice by far for your money. Plenty of people are long-term cruising in 25 - 30 ft GRP boats. It's a struggle to fit in enough supplies but it can be done.

Steel boats for that much normally fall into the "unfinished project" category, meaning they would cost at least as much again, plus months of work, to bring into a useable state.

Concrete boats tend to be somewhat larger and therefore more expensive, but don't believe all the adverse comments about this material - I have seen and sailed on some excellent examples. You might be lucky enough to find one within your budget but you would need to be very careful at that price.

Wooden boats can be excellent (witness the Folkboat) for less than your budget, but anything with sufficient size to carry all your supplies in comfort is going to take quite a lot of maintenance and probably be expensive to purchase.

So it really comes down to GRP, unless you are prepared to purchase outside the EU and not bring the boat back. Don't get too hung up about hitting containers - I know very many yachtsmen but I don't know one who has hit one. Take with a large pinch of salt the stories of lightly built multihulls doing 25 knots that "hit a floating object". Chances are they didn't, just a wave. Try looking outside UK, especially France and Holland, where small GRP boat prices are far lower than in UK. (Example. Until very recently there was a Grampian 34 for sale at Hellevoetsluis, asking price 20,000 pounds but it had been there a long time and was looking very tatty. I doubt whether it fetched a lot more than half that.) Look at http://www.devalk.nl/ for some ideas.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

 

[George]

Re: buying from America

Thanks for the down to earth advise.

Yes, without much doubt buying from America presents a number of hurdles and with my budget the most hasle free option is probably, as you said, the monohull GRP, however not wishing to be obsessed by containers I would still like to find a viable way to combat the dangers of floating debree for piece of mind and to reasure my wife who has hardly ever sailed in her life. The most practical solution I come accross is to buy an 'unsinkable' yacht or at least convert one to such, and take some repair equipment, so that at least if I did hole the boat I have a reasonable chance of doing something about it, I am a skilled diver and also have extensive experience in in D.I.Y, so perhaps this is the most practical option. As for other issues of safety I am planning to get a survey done on any yacht I intend to buy before buying it to make sure it is sea worthy and also do the proper studying and training before embarking on a long term voyage. I don't expect sailing to be without its dangers but a would like to be as safe as is practicable.

 

[George]

Re: Suez Canal

Thanks for the reply.

Very sound advice, and not really negative. Trimarans do appear to be generally beyond my budget, I recieved a reply from America about one tri I was inquiring about and it turned out to be practically a floating wreck, or a 'major project' put in more positive terms. The 10 to 15 thousand is just for the yacht not the rest of the expenses, saying that though I may just hold fire and try to save a little bit more for the yacht. As for the Suez(correct spelling this time!) the reason I mentioned it was because it seems likely that I may be passing through there a fair amount for various reasons, I should perhaps have explained that, anyway a smallish monohull would probably be the cheapest option for that anyway. I have found a catamaran that is within my budget though, its 32', wooden and in seaworthy condition only needing some general maintenance. I am tempted by the stability, spaciousness and speed of cats.

 

[Guest]

You pose some very interesting problems which have been asked a thousand times.Most beginners think about the boat just like you and ask the same questions,but the first question is( have I the experience to handle a boat in rough seas) my advice is get some sailing experience and the answers will unfold.I sail a catamaran and i`ve sailed numerous mono`s they both have good points and not so good points but one of the myths is cats capsize,they may, if overpressed when racing but not normaly,mono`s sink like a stone if holed,but with a cat if she turns turtle she will float so you have something to sit on.look at Prout snowgoose a world renowned cruising cat been around a long time.prouts are on canvey island

double trouble